Windows 11 / WASAPI

[amey01]

Such a weird problem.

 

I've got a new Windows 11 (USB-C only) machine with MusicBee configured to output WASAPI to an Audioquest Dragonfly.  

 

Using a USB-C > A converter on I can not get bitperfect sound. The DAC just connects at the Windows Directsound bitrate. 

BUT I can get bitperfect sound by plugging the Dragonfly into a USB-A port on a USB-C dock (into the same USB-C port on the laptop).

 

What on earth could be going on here?  

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

What is your indicator of bit perfect sound?

[amey01]

27 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What is your indicator of bit perfect sound?

In its most basic sense - the DAC should be showing the same sample rate as the source file. 

 

IE: If I play a 24/96 file, the DAC should show 96k, if I switch to a 16/44.1 file the dac should show 44.1. 

 

This is not happening with the USB-C > A converter  ??

[The Computer Audiophile]

Sample rate is very different from bit perfect. You could convert a WAV file to MP3 and the sample rate will remain the same. 
 

In your case, auto sample rate switching isn’t working.
 

 

[Miska]

WASAPI has two modes, "Shared Mode" that is used by most Windows applications that want to output sound, like web browser, games, etc. This goes through sample rate conversion and mixing so that you can listen to output of multiple applications at the same time. Like watching YouTube and hearing email notification sound at the same time. DirectSound and other game audio also goes through this, so you can specify fixed output format in Windows sound settings (Control Panel -> Sound).

 

WASAPI also has "Exclusive Mode", where only one application has access to audio output. This bypasses all OS audio engine sample rate conversions and mixing. This is what you want to use for audiophile use cases.

 

 

 

[amey01]

13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

In your case, auto sample rate switching isn’t working.
 

 

 

Yes - but that means resampling - and resampling means not bitperfect! 

 

I'm not using MP3s, only FLACs. 

[amey01]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

 

WASAPI also has "Exclusive Mode", where only one application has access to audio output. This bypasses all OS audio engine sample rate conversions and mixing. This is what you want to use for audiophile use cases.

Exclusive mode is what I'm using. But I've also tried shared - no joy. 

 

Strangely - it all works as expected through the USB Dock. 

 

But I want to use the Dragonfly travelling and at work - which means using a USB-C > A converter. 

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, amey01 said:

 

Yes - but that means resampling - and resampling means not bitperfect! 

 

I'm not using MP3s, only FLACs. 

Exactly what I’m saying.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Which devices are you using (dock & adapter)? This will help. 

[lucretius]

47 minutes ago, amey01 said:

But I want to use the Dragonfly travelling and at work - which means using a USB-C > A converter. 

 

Sometimes the adapter or dock are problematic.  If you have access to another adapter or dock you can try that.  Also try plugging the adapter or dock into a different USB port. (Not all USB ports are equal!)

[yamamoto2002]

2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Sometimes the adapter or dock are problematic.  If you have access to another adapter or dock you can try that.  Also try plugging the adapter or dock into a different USB port. (Not all USB ports are equal!)

 

OP experienced the problem when using USB Type C to A receptacle adapter. According to "Universal Serial Bus Type-C Cable and Connector Specification",  USB Type C to A receptacle adapter is pretty simple, it does not have any active circuit, the pins of the plug and the receptacle are hardwired with one 5.1kΩ pulldown resistor and one 10nF bypass capacitor. It is mysterious. I guess the problem cause is not hardware related and it is due to application or OS settings

 

[amey01]

7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Which devices are you using (dock & adapter)? This will help. 

Dock is a Dell DA310. I'm using one of its USB-A ports.

 

USB-C > A adapter is an Apple dongle as well as a cheap Amazon "UGREEN" brand. Both exhibit the same behaviour. 

 

DAC is a Dragonfly, and computer is a Dell XPS13 (9310).

[amey01]

 

 

It's even weirder! 

 

The Dell DA310 has a USB-C port as well as a USB-A port. 

 

Using a USB-A port on the dock works fine (as above) 

Using the USB-C > A converter on the dock also works fine!!!!. 

Plugging the USB-C > A converter directly into the laptop does not work

 

I'm so confused now.  

 

 

So.....3 videos attached - showing the behaviour. 

 

 

Files of different bitrate and dell dock.MOV

 

Dell dock and USB-C-A converter.MOV

Direct to computer.MOV

 

^^

[amey01]

Error post.

[bogi]

I would try to look at both cases with NirSoft USBDeview if the same driver is in use

 

 

[amey01]

1 hour ago, bogi said:

I would try to look at both cases with NirSoft USBDeview if the same driver is in use

 

 

 

Close I was hoping; but no go. 

 

BLUE is when plugged into the hub. 

RED is direct to port. 

They look identical.

 

 

  

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks for the videos. Wow. Hard to explain. I have that USB C adapter and DragonFly. I will test too. 
 

Perhaps DF designer and computer expert @Wavelength could lend a hand figuring this out. 

[lucretius]

13 hours ago, yamamoto2002 said:

 

OP experienced the problem when using USB Type C to A receptacle adapter. According to "Universal Serial Bus Type-C Cable and Connector Specification",  USB Type C to A receptacle adapter is pretty simple, it does not have any active circuit, the pins of the plug and the receptacle are hardwired with one 5.1kΩ pulldown resistor and one 10nF bypass capacitor. It is mysterious. I guess the problem cause is not hardware related and it is due to application or OS settings

 

 

I have one of these type of adapters (cheap one from Amazon) that I plug into my Macbook.  It seems to work sometimes and not at other times.

 

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I have that USB C adapter and DragonFly.

 

 

I use a USB C adapter from Audioquest with my Dragonfly. Works all the time -- with computer or phone.

 

[yamamoto2002]

14 hours ago, amey01 said:

 

Close I was hoping; but no go. 

 

BLUE is when plugged into the hub. 

RED is direct to port. 

They look identical.

 

 

  

 

It seems your Dragonfly uses USB Audio Class 1 protocol.

 

WWShowUsbDeviceTree shows list of available device sample rate and bit depth of the USB Audio Class 1 device:

 

https://sourceforge.net/p/playpcmwin/wiki/WWShowUsbDeviceTree/

 

The following example, the audio device exposes following PCM data format to the Host PC.

• PCM 2ch stereo 16bit 32kHz, 44.1kHz and 48kHz
• PCM 1ch mono 16bit 32kHz, 44.1kHz and 48kHz

and those combination of PCM data format should be available to OS shared mode list and app WASAPI exclusive playback PCM format candidate.

 

 

Another example, the audio device provides

• PCM 2ch stereo 16bit 96kHz
• PCM 2ch stereo 24bit 96kHz

On this case, the USB audio device accepts only 96kHz PCM. Therefore 44.1kHz data cannot be transferred to the audio device without resampling and bitperfect transferring is impossible.

[amey01]

Both direct connection to laptop, and through the dock seem to show identical available bitrates: 

 

Direct connection and through dock attached. They look identical, but for the "Type A" and "Type C" difference (as expected). 

 

 

 

[yamamoto2002]

Thank you. From the picture you provided, there is no difference of the playback capability between two connection methods. Therefore the problem is caused by either app settings or OS settings.

 

 

[amey01]

4 minutes ago, yamamoto2002 said:

Thank you. From the picture you provided, there is no difference of the playback capability between two connection methods. Therefore the problem is caused by either app settings or OS settings.

 

 

OS settings would be my bet, given: 

 

1. The app works perfectly with the dock

2. The same behaviour can be observed with any app (MusicBee, Foobar, Squeezelite). 

 

 

[yamamoto2002]

Is the following checkbox of Advanced tab of playback device property window is checked ? Control Panel → Sound → Select Playback device and press Properties button to show this window.

 

[amey01]

30 minutes ago, yamamoto2002 said:

Is the following checkbox of Advanced tab of playback device property window is checked ? Control Panel → Sound → Select Playback device and press Properties button to show this window.

 

Yes!! Both modes, this is checked. 

[yamamoto2002]

This is real mystery! Maybe the dock has audio capability and when connected, default shared mode device is changed from Dragonfly to dock audio out ?

[bogi]

6 hours ago, yamamoto2002 said:

Maybe the dock has audio capability

I also got the impression that maybe the docking station acts as a sound device.

 

@amey01Try to list your output audio devices when the docking station is in use and without, if the lists are the same. To get the list, press Windows button and type "Manage sound devices".