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Forgive me Father.. aka confession of audio heretic..


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4 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

You're absolutely right! I am personally immensely grateful to all the musicians who sacrifice themselves (actually simply to all good musicians)! Without them my life would be very different. Definitely not better :)

Have you ever played a loud note on eg tenor sax in a small or medium size room.? I did. I'm pretty sure it reaches the sound level of about 120db. I do have a 300W electric bass combo and a bass with both active and passive mode. I'm pretty sure, in particular in the former one it's even louder.

Have ever measured the maximum sound level of your listening session? I'm pretty sure it's less than that! So maybe you also should be 'immensely grateful' to them :) not only for the music but also for their countless hours spent practicing and playing in what sometimes is very loud environment.

The law protects us, ordinary people from something like that but not them..

Here is SPL chart for some instruments.

 

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

Some quotes: 

Piano Fortissimo 84 - 103dB
Clarinet 85 - 114dB
Trombone 85 - 114dB   
Symphonic music peak 120 - 137dB
Rock music peak 150dB

From the 'Notes' of the above article:

"The incidence of hearing loss in classical musicians has been estimated at 4  - 43%, in rock musicians 13 - 30%."

I was actually thinking about the well known fact that musicians usually don't care about the sound reproduction quality. I have friends who are musicians, I know they hear music in a different way than non-musicians but I really wonder how many of them have some level of hearing damage due to their professional activity..

A very quick google search:

"Professional musicians are almost four times as likely to develop noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) as the general public, reveals research. And they are 57% more likely to develop tinnitus—incessant ringing in the ears—as a result of their job, the findings show."

Hearing loss among musicians

So have I convinced you.? I am definitely ready to pause for a minute of silence to honor all of them, will you join me.?

:)

 

 

** measurements missing for some crucial instruments for any audiophile collection that values a wide variety of traditional/folk music and numerous sub genres and sub-sub-genres 'n s**t on into obscurity.

 

Bagpipes (single set can reach 120dB)

 

Banjo (80-95dB)

 

Accordion (piano accordion 80-95dB)

 

Hurdy Gurdy (unmeasurable, can break sound meters)

 

A reminder that not loudness is only one factor. Pitch is also important as well as what some generalize and report subjectively as "Irritation Factor". For example, hurdy gurdy is off the charts for irritation factor. (I LOVE hurdy gurdy!)

 

If you want to play a lot of, for example, medieval music, a good deal of which has poor recording quality as well as potentially irritating singing and instrumentation,  and if you want to include the above instruments for folk, bluegrass, polka, etc. (if you want to enjoy Garth Hudson's accordion on The Band's version of "When I Paint My Masterpiece" and a number of other  performances by The Band, or enjoy Flaco Jimenez on any number of Ry Cooder recordings and other Tex-Mex/ Tijano music, or David Hidalgo's accordion on at least 2 tracks of any Los Lobos album, etc., etc. etc., you need a system that is ....."Forgiving". There, the heretical word has been uttered. Let Burning at the Stake for Euphonic Possession commence. Now, back to hiding in Music in General (they'll never find me there!)

 

🤠

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3 hours ago, Rexp said:

Er..I said sound close to the instrument, not the same as the instrument.

 

Then to me it is not literal reproduction of the what was heard.

 

That is why I say, live music can never be reproduced.

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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May I say something on reproduction of the original scale and dynamics.?

How do you guys want to reproduce this with 2x5kg of speakers or even 2x25kg.?

(don't forget that beside this hammer there are a couple of dozens of instruments in the orchestra and that includes a substantial number of basses)

 

 

Not even mentioning this..

 

 

;)

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11 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

 

Have you ever played a loud note on eg tenor sax in a small or medium size room.? I did. I'm pretty sure it reaches the sound level of about 120db. I do have a 300W electric bass combo and a bass with both active and passive mode. I'm pretty sure, in particular in the former one it's even louder.

 

Yep, been there ... my brother has been a musician since forever - I not at all - and he was into saxophone at one stage; played some big notes in a living room years ago ... amazing stuff! Put it this way - I could have listened to that instrument for hours, compared to the awfulness of sound reinforcement systems at almost all shows, that I put up with for years - end result, completely gave up on going to anything "live", because I was just wasting my money ...

 

Quote

Have ever measured the maximum sound level of your listening session? I'm pretty sure it's less than that! So maybe you also should be 'immensely grateful' to them :) not only for the music but also for their countless hours spent practicing and playing in what sometimes is very loud environment.

The law protects us, ordinary people from something like that but not them..

Here is SPL chart for some instruments.

 

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

Some quotes: 

Piano Fortissimo 84 - 103dB
Clarinet 85 - 114dB
Trombone 85 - 114dB   
Symphonic music peak 120 - 137dB
Rock music peak

150dB

 

 

Yes, peaks - strange thing, most instruments stay way, way below that most of the time; it's only when you have idiots running PA sets, that compress the hell out of the sound that throws everything off; it's the total exposure to SPLs that does the real damage.

 

Quote

From the 'Notes' of the above article:

"The incidence of hearing loss in classical musicians has been estimated at 4  - 43%, in rock musicians 13 - 30%."

I was actually thinking about the well known fact that musicians usually don't care about the sound reproduction quality. I have friends who are musicians, I know they hear music in a different way than non-musicians but I really wonder how many of them have some level of hearing damage due to their professional activity..

A very quick google search:

"Professional musicians are almost four times as likely to develop noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) as the general public, reveals research. And they are 57% more likely to develop tinnitus—incessant ringing in the ears—as a result of their job, the findings show."

Hearing loss among musicians

 

If your job is to be in the middle of an orchestra, playing on a regular basis, then your accumulated exposure to higher sound levels is obviously greater - just about anything that humans do, where there is greater than normal levels of effort or exposure, causes more wear and tear on the body; just think of any sport, for example. So, we should tell, say, all athletes, and musicians, to, "Stop Doing That !!!" ... right? 😉

 

Quote

So have I convinced you.? I am definitely ready to pause for a minute of silence to honor all of them, will you join me.?

:)

 

 

Not really ... anything can be to extremes - moderation, as always, is the key....

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9 hours ago, Rexp said:

Er..I said sound close to the instrument, not the same as the instrument.

 

Yes. What we're after is the ability to present the impact and sense of the instrument, etc, to the degree that the differences are minor in importance, and that unless we're "experts" at picking differences, then the illusion is convincing.

 

In the case of a piano, we want someone to walk up to the house, hear the instrument through open windows; knock on the front door; enter, and walk into the lounge - and then look bewildered - "I was absolutely certain someone was playing your piano, just now!!" 🙂

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From the looks of it, most here haven't been able to achieve climactic impact - say, a hammer blow 😉 - from their rigs ... interesting ...

 

BTW, what's this about, accordion? ... Recordings with this instrument are fab; great sounding box of tricks, 🙂.

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The room doesn't matter ... at this very moment I'm playing a no-name label (Bescol ??!), Chuck Berry, 21 Greatest Hits CD - and some of these, say, Maybelline, were done in some huge acoustic space, stretching way back from the speakers; his voice is expanding in all directions. Which works beautifully - has nothing to do with how the speakers are set up in my lounge ...

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12 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

Since every room is different - I never worry about accuracy.   Just enjoy your system in your room......

 

That is why treatments are important if you want a better sounding system.

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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14 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Yep, been there ... my brother has been a musician since forever - I not at all - and he was into saxophone at one stage; played some big notes in a living room years ago ... amazing stuff! Put it this way - I could have listened to that instrument for hours, compared to the awfulness of sound reinforcement systems at almost all shows, that I put up with for years - end result, completely gave up on going to anything "live", because I was just wasting my money ...

 

 

Yes, peaks - strange thing, most instruments stay way, way below that most of the time; it's only when you have idiots running PA sets, that compress the hell out of the sound that throws everything off; it's the total exposure to SPLs that does the real damage.

 

 

If your job is to be in the middle of an orchestra, playing on a regular basis, then your accumulated exposure to higher sound levels is obviously greater - just about anything that humans do, where there is greater than normal levels of effort or exposure, causes more wear and tear on the body; just think of any sport, for example. So, we should tell, say, all athletes, and musicians, to, "Stop Doing That !!!" ... right? 😉

 

 

Not really ... anything can be to extremes - moderation, as always, is the key....

 

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

The room doesn't matter ... at this very moment I'm playing a no-name label (Bescol ??!), Chuck Berry, 21 Greatest Hits CD - and some of these, say, Maybelline, were done in some huge acoustic space, stretching way back from the speakers; his voice is expanding in all directions. Which works beautifully - has nothing to do with how the speakers are set up in my lounge ...

 

I thing I'd give away one of my spare interconnects for the privilege of being inside your head for 5 minutes.

Not sure I would like to stay there longer, though.. ;)

  

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8 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

 

 

I thing I'd give away one of my spare interconnects for the privilege of being inside your head for 5 minutes.

Not sure I would like to stay there longer, though.. ;)

  

 

Bev literally said, 5 minutes ago, that she was extremely privileged to able to hear what the sound systems I work on produce - it's something like, "the proof's in the pudding" ... 😉

 

No great mysteries in any of this ... if you have a recording which one day sounded absolutely magical on some rig, is it because,

 

A) The system has so much expensive blinginess that it transformed the playback, by distorting what was on the recording - to make an ordinary recording sound much, much better than it actually is?

 

or

 

B) The recording is actually what's magical, and it just requires playback to have high enough integrity, to cleanly present what was captured?

 

Most people want to believe in A; I obviously believe in B - and if the latter is correct, then all it takes is the effort to create an accurate enough setup to do the job. In the world of audio, where people learn a whole set of rather bizarre beliefs, this doesn't tally ... QED, 🤪.

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9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Bev literally said, 5 minutes ago, that she was extremely privileged to able to hear what the sound systems I work on produce - it's something like, "the proof's in the pudding" ... 😉

 

No great mysteries in any of this ... if you have a recording which one day sounded absolutely magical on some rig, is it because,

 

A) The system has so much expensive blinginess that it transformed the playback, by distorting what was on the recording - to make an ordinary recording sound much, much better than it actually is?

 

or

 

B) The recording is actually what's magical, and it just requires playback to have high enough integrity, to cleanly present what was captured?

 

Most people want to believe in A; I obviously believe in B - and if the latter is correct, then all it takes is the effort to create an accurate enough setup to do the job. In the world of audio, where people learn a whole set of rather bizarre beliefs, this doesn't tally ... QED, 🤪.

 

Good for you but not a reality, if based on what you have described as your system.

 

All nonsense there. 'Integrity' - WTH do you mean. 

 

All the flowery words mean absolutely nothing, bud. 

 

I think it is you that has the bizarre beliefs. 

 

What does all this have to do with the OP's OT?

 

Have fun and continue on.

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Bev

Who is Bev?

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

... if you have a recording which one day sounded absolutely magical

Why do you often say something sounded one day .?

 

3 hours ago, botrytis said:

Don't go there. I don't think that is place any audiophile would want to be.

You didn't have the 'room' acoustics on your mind, have you.?

As you can see it seems that I still thing about it a little...:D

 

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1 hour ago, botrytis said:

 

Good for you but not a reality, if based on what you have described as your system.

 

The system ultimately is irrelevant - it does the job of reproducing what's on the recording with the least signature possible; and it just turns out that the electronics industry, and China, have done an excellent job of evolving the key elements to a point where value for money is top notch - this certainly wasn't the case even a decade ago.

 

Quote

 

All nonsense there. 'Integrity' - WTH do you mean. 

 

That distortion and electrical noise artifacts are under control - this is almost always hard to do, so far; and is what 'ruins' the SQ of some of the most ambitious rigs out there; they have extreme "signature", meaning that they impose far too much of their own lack of, yes, integrity on what you hear.

 

Quote

 

What does all this have to do with the OP's OT?

 

Well, he offers the thought that recordings can be better than live - and, I agree! The corollary is that the playback chain has to be operating to a very high standard, to realise that opportunity ...

 

Quote

 

Have fun and continue on.

 

I indeed intend to do so, 😉.

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1 minute ago, sphinxsix said:

Who is Bev

 

My partner - she was around when I first got convincing SQ 35 years ago, and has no trouble being irked by, say, violin tone that doesn't nail it ...

 

1 minute ago, sphinxsix said:

 

Why do you often say something sounded one day .?

 

Because it often happens that "one day the stars aligned" - that is, the playback system happened to stabilise to a peak quality, for a variety of reasons, and the replay was brilliant - this could disappear an hour later, because a single factor was no longer in the optimum state, to make the playback sound so good.

 

This is something I have been dealing with for decades - working on evolving complete control over everything that matters.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Because it often happens that "one day the stars aligned" - that is, the playback system happened to stabilise to a peak quality, for a variety of reasons, and the replay was brilliant - this could disappear an hour later, because a single factor was no longer in the optimum state, to make the playback sound so good.

You have taken into account that this factor may be in a 'room' I asked @botrytis about, which is also the same place I was thinking about getting into for indecently low price of a second hand interconnect, haven't you.?

 

22 minutes ago, fas42 said:

This is something I have been dealing with for decades - working on evolving complete control over everything that matters.

Some say some effort is necessary and it may also take years to master the above mentioned factor ;)

 

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13 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

You have taken into account that this factor may be in a 'room' I asked @botrytis about, which is also the same place I was thinking about getting into for indecently low price of a second hand interconnect, haven't you.?

 

 

 

Stick some rock n' roll band into into any sort of space where they're got enough room to set up their gear, and have them play to people standing in front of them - which type of spaces stop them sounding like group of live musicians, playing? 🙂

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19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Stick some rock n' roll band into into any sort of space where they're got enough room to set up their gear, and have them play to people standing in front of them - which type of spaces stop them sounding like group of live musicians, playing? 🙂

 

Have them first play in an anechoic chamber then move into a room which has no sound absorbent materials at all in it.

 

Come back and tell us if you still believe the room doesn't matter.

 

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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2 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

I tend to agree with that.

Quite strongly.

Speakers plus speakers-room interaction equals 85% of the sound in the room.

That's my simplest audio maths.

Put top hi end (and good!) speakers into a wrong room and you can get worse result than with some 10x cheaper ones but carefully placed in a room with a proper acoustics.

I've finished preaching.

Amen.

 

Let's see what Bev has to say...

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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