Forgive me Father.. aka confession of audio heretic..

[sphinxsix]

14 minutes ago, fas42 said:

If this doesn't happen for a recording you play, then it's because the accuracy of the playback chain you're hearing it through is not high enough - it's as simple as that ...

The room acoustics are important factor too.

 

[fas42]

56 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

The room acoustics are important factor too.

 

 

Not IME ... when the system gets it right, then what emerges from the speaker driver surfaces has such a high integrity that what the room is like doesn't matter any more - hard surfaces, soft surfaces, windows, etc, become irrelevant; the illusion projected by the playback is so 'powerful', that it dominates the environment you're in.

 

This is not easy !!! My current setup is getting there, but still may take major surgery to finally break through to that standard - hopefully not needed; but I can't just wish it worked this well; the effort needs to be put into finding out where the bottlenecks are. I don't do room adjusting ... because this is just a form of masking, and will always fail under some circumstances.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Why do people think this is impossible? It's only sound waves, after all, and the microphones don't run and hide, when capturing the event in the cocert hall, etc. So, just reproduce what the microphones pick up - and it just falls into place ... 🙂

 

As I've said many times, what you get is that everything past the plane of the speakers is replaced by what's on the recording - so, as one example, you could be listening in a tiny room; "looking into" a massive space which could be literally a kilometer deep, if that is what the acoustics of the sound event was. It's not jarring to experience; the mind ignores the space you're listening in, and just takes in the 'projected' illusion.

 

If this doesn't happen for a recording you play, then it's because the accuracy of the playback chain you're hearing it through is not high enough - it's as simple as that ...

Because it is impossible to get live sound from ANY home audio system - period.

 

The Acoustics of the venue, where you sit, etc all affect the sound. One cannot model that and get the live sound. 

[botrytis]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Not IME ... when the system gets it right, then what emerges from the speaker driver surfaces has such a high integrity that what the room is like doesn't matter any more - hard surfaces, soft surfaces, windows, etc, become irrelevant; the illusion projected by the playback is so 'powerful', that it dominates the environment you're in.

 

This is not easy !!! My current setup is getting there, but still may take major surgery to finally break through to that standard - hopefully not needed; but I can't just wish it worked this well; the effort needs to be put into finding out where the bottlenecks are. I don't do room adjusting ... because this is just a form of masking, and will always fail under some circumstances.

 

Room acoustics are important unless you are listening nearfield. Your opinion goes against the basic laws of physics/audio.

 

Room treatments help to deal with nulls and reflections in the room. An accurate music system includes this. That is why many use DSP systems, which can adjust for reflections. 

 

If one does not deal with the room, one is ignoring the biggest part of the audio chain.  I have seen very expensive system sound like garbage in an untreated room.

[fas42]

48 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Because it is impossible to get live sound from ANY home audio system - period.

 

The Acoustics of the venue, where you sit, etc all affect the sound. One cannot model that and get the live sound. 

 

Think of this situation: your home is literally attached to a concert hall, such that the room you're in is facing the musical action - and a wall is put in that room which aligns with the front of the speakers. On the other side of that wall the parts of the room there are completely removed, so it's now fully open to that performance space. Now, discard your speakers, and put two smallish, open doors in the just installed wall, which are in the same positions as those just removed speakers .

 

What do you think you would hear?

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Not IME ... when the system gets it right, then what emerges from the speaker driver surfaces has such a high integrity that what the room is like doesn't matter any more - hard surfaces, soft surfaces, windows, etc, become irrelevant; the illusion projected by the playback is so 'powerful', that it dominates the environment you're in.

Not IME.

[sphinxsix]

56 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I have seen very expensive system sound like garbage in an untreated room.

True!

[sphinxsix]

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Think of this situation: your home is literally attached to a concert hall, such that the room you're in is facing the musical action - and a wall is put in that room which aligns with the front of the speakers. On the other side of that wall the parts of the room there are completely removed, so it's now fully open to that performance space. Now, discard your speakers, and put two smallish, open doors in the just installed wall, which are in the same positions as those just removed speakers .

 

What do you think you would hear?

The sound of the concert hall event plus what the room (you're in) would add to that. With a gaping hole in the middle of the soundstage most probably.

In short, I'd bet it would sound like..

 

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

The sound of the concert hall event plus what the room (you're in) would add to that. With a gaping hole in the middle of the soundstage most probably.

In short, I'd bet it would sound like..

 

 

 

Wouldn't be interesting for someone to actually construct such, as an experiment, to see how different people perceived such a situation - I suspect, for one, that the gaping hole in the soundstage wouldn't occur; the listening brain would integrate the two sound sources, because it recognises that they are merely two "windows" on the same event ...

 

To go a step further, have the listener go over to one of the two openings into the concert hall space, be merely some inches in front of it, with his head central to the opening ... what would he hear?

 

To put this in some perspective, consider walking into a concert space, through one of the many open doorways of a real one, and pause just before going actually through it - would what he hears at that point also be, ummm, a horror? 🙂

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Think of this situation: your home is literally attached to a concert hall, such that the room you're in is facing the musical action - and a wall is put in that room which aligns with the front of the speakers. On the other side of that wall the parts of the room there are completely removed, so it's now fully open to that performance space. Now, discard your speakers, and put two smallish, open doors in the just installed wall, which are in the same positions as those just removed speakers .

 

What do you think you would hear?

Sorry, Frank. Here is where your delusions don't match reality. 

 

First, one can NEVER reproduce a concert at home. The volume yes, the scale, the dynamics NO. That is where the difference happens. Also, is the fact that seeing an orchestra, an Opera, even a rock band is more visceral when seeing something live. An opera live is an experience, it is 3 dimensional the scope and the grandeur. One can NEVER get that at home.

 

 

[fas42]

15 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

First, one can NEVER reproduce a concert at home. The volume yes, the scale, the dynamics NO. That is where the difference happens. Also, is the fact that seeing an orchestra, an Opera, even a rock band is more visceral when seeing something live. An opera live is an experience, it is 3 dimensional the scope and the grandeur. One can NEVER get that at home.

 

 

 

Why can't a system do the scale and dynamics? Is it because you have some clear, rational reason for this, or purely because you haven't experienced a setup that was able to do such, relatively effortlessly.

 

If you were at a grand, live event, and closed your eyes for some time, would a large part of the 3D nature and scope of it, etc, simply evaporate from your consciousness?

[GregWormald]

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

Also, is the fact that seeing an orchestra, an Opera, even a rock band is more visceral when seeing something live.

 

Agreed.

 

While I was over-emphasising the down sides of live music, I don't want to discard the whole live music experience—and it is an experience different to listening to music from my own chair.

 

Some live music experiences changed my life. Like being on stage with Iron Butterfly for a rendition of In A Gadda Da Vida, or sitting in a small bar not 10 feet away from the Milt Jackson Quintet for an entire evening, or rubbing shoulders with Minnie Riperton of Rotary Connection, or ...

[sphinxsix]

15 hours ago, fas42 said:

To put this in some perspective, consider walking into a concert space, through one of the many open doorways of a real one, and pause just before going actually through it - would what he hears at that point also be, ummm, a horror? 🙂

A little smaller horror.

 

7 hours ago, GregWormald said:

While I was over-emphasising the down sides of live music

Thank you for this! 

 

7 hours ago, GregWormald said:

I don't want to discard the whole live music experience—and it is an experience different to listening to music from my own chair.

Agree!

 

7 hours ago, GregWormald said:

Some live music experiences changed my life.

Same here but..

some albums also changed my life.

 

 

[sphinxsix]

15 hours ago, botrytis said:

The volume yes, the scale, the dynamics NO.

True!

No way!

In particular live music heard from a small distance.

If only live sound was better more often..

 

[fas42]

4 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

True!

No way!

In particular live music heard from a small distance.

If only live sound was better more often..

 

 

Curious that you find the real thing disturbing ... the raw power of a single instrument experienced up close is something else - if it is something so terrible, then we should be immensely grateful to all the musicians who sacrifice themselves, suffering as they endure the sound of their instrument, and those of their fellow players adjacent to them; all for the sake of listeners who remain at a safe distance from the cacophany ... pause for a minute of silence, to show respect for the fallen heros, who have dedicated their lives to giving a tiny bit of pleasure for others, suffering such pain to produce this little bit of goodness ... 🤣.

[Rexp]

21 hours ago, botrytis said:

Sorry, Frank. Here is where your delusions don't match reality. 

 

First, one can NEVER reproduce a concert at home. The volume yes, the scale, the dynamics NO. That is where the difference happens. Also, is the fact that seeing an orchestra, an Opera, even a rock band is more visceral when seeing something live. An opera live is an experience, it is 3 dimensional the scope and the grandeur. One can NEVER get that at home.

 

 

If an acoustic instrument is recorded in your listening room, you should be able to get close to reproducing it on your system, dontcha think? 

[fas42]

Yes, the piano in the lounge is a good one ... record someone getting stuck into some boisterous Chopin on that; and see how it comes across, at comparable levels to the live performance - if the energy of that is largely intact, then you should be able to do any large scale musical event ...

[sphinxsix]

13 hours ago, fas42 said:

Curious that you find the real thing disturbing ... the raw power of a single instrument experienced up close is something else - if it is something so terrible, then we should be immensely grateful to all the musicians who sacrifice themselves,

You're absolutely right! I am personally immensely grateful to all the musicians who sacrifice themselves (actually simply to all good musicians)! Without them my life would be very different. Definitely not better 

Have you ever played a loud note on eg tenor sax in a small or medium size room.? I did. I'm pretty sure it reaches the sound level of about 120db. I do have a 300W electric bass combo and a bass with both active and passive mode. I'm pretty sure, in particular in the former one it's even louder.

Have ever measured the maximum sound level of your listening session? I'm pretty sure it's less than that! So maybe you also should be 'immensely grateful' to them  not only for the music but also for their countless hours spent practicing and playing in what sometimes is very loud environment.

The law protects us, ordinary people from something like that but not them..

Here is SPL chart for some instruments.

 

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

Some quotes: 

Piano Fortissimo

84 - 103dB

Clarinet

85 - 114dB

Trombone

85 - 114dB

Symphonic music peak

120 - 137dB

Rock music peak

150dB

From the 'Notes' of the above article:

"The incidence of hearing loss in classical musicians has been estimated at 4  - 43%, in rock musicians 13 - 30%."

I was actually thinking about the well known fact that musicians usually don't care about the sound reproduction quality. I have friends who are musicians, I know they hear music in a different way than non-musicians but I really wonder how many of them have some level of hearing damage due to their professional activity..

A very quick google search:

"Professional musicians are almost four times as likely to develop noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) as the general public, reveals research. And they are 57% more likely to develop tinnitus—incessant ringing in the ears—as a result of their job, the findings show."

Hearing loss among musicians

So have I convinced you.? I am definitely ready to pause for a minute of silence to honor all of them, will you join me.?

 

[CJH]

On 10/6/2021 at 5:18 PM, fas42 said:

Most systems can't do 'intensity' ... they distort too much, are unpleasant to listen to; so someone moves over, fairly quickly, and turns the volume down ... what you have to do is evolve a rig to the point where you want to turn the volume up, even more ... this is the tricky part, of course 😉 - and many people never get to this point ...

Absolutely correct. It does take a lot of work (and EQ) to get to this point. Now that I'm there (or close) wish I had more watts.

CJH

[botrytis]

13 hours ago, Rexp said:

If an acoustic instrument is recorded in your listening room, you should be able to get close to reproducing it on your system, dontcha think? 

 

 

Actually, it will not sound the same. Microphones, the sq of the recording system, etc. all affect it. So no, I don't think it is possible.

[botrytis]

Loudest concert I was ever at, when I was young and foolish, was Tangerine Dream at the Riviera Theatre in Chicago. It was standing only. So, we were standing on a concrete floor and could feel the bass in the concrete that went up into our chests from the floor. It was loud and intense. My ears were ringing for days. After that I started taking ear plugs with me to concerts.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

14 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

 

Actually, it will not sound the same. Microphones, the sq of the recording system, etc. all affect it. So no, I don't think it is possible.

 

And last but not least, the speakers. Think of all the variety of speakers available. Do they all sound alike? No. 

 

A single note on an instrument is quite complex (multiple frequencies and levels over time) and no speaker will reproduce it exactly. 

[botrytis]

@hopkinsI totally agree.

 

example - classical guitar. Here is a paper on mathematical modeling and measurements of Classical guitar.

 

 

6084230.pdf

[Rexp]

20 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

 

Actually, it will not sound the same. Microphones, the sq of the recording system, etc. all affect it. So no, I don't think it is possible.

Er..I said sound close to the instrument, not the same as the instrument.

[Rexp]

7 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

And last but not least, the speakers. Think of all the variety of speakers available. Do they all sound alike? No. 

 

A single note on an instrument is quite complex to reproduce and no speaker can do that exactly. 

Maybe good speakers should sound alike.