Popular Post sphinxsix Posted October 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 5, 2021 Here's the thing, Father.. For decades the live sound has been kind of Holy Grail of the audiophile world. Let's put it straight - it's the biggest BS in the history of audiophilia. Period. Let's take what is by many, including me regarded as the most difficult music material to reproduce at home - classical music, in particular orchestral one (many instruments, room acoustics, dynamics, etc all make it difficult for the audio gear). I've been more seriously interested in classical for a relatively short period of time - 6 or 7 years - in comparison with many here. Since I came to live in the Netherlands 4 years ago I have managed to attend a gloriously high number of concerts, mainly classical and jazz music and I've been a regular guest in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw which is widely regarded as a concert hall with very good acoustics. I always try to get a good sitting place in the hall and usually succeed with that (BTW that's also what I do in case of rock and jazz concerts), center, usually 10-15m from the stage. And so we have a good concert hall, good orchestra (not necessarily from here, my next concert will be Ivan Fischer with Budapest SO performing Mahler) and theoretically everything that should make every music lover and at the same time audiophile feel like in heaven. And during great concerts that take place here, I do feel like in heaven! There is only one problem, Father... I prefer the sound of my home system.. First of all, my ears get a bigger portion of detail in this case. It's as if someone turned on more light in a dim room. I get a better more clear insight into what has been written on paper by the composer. I'm closer, more intimate with his intentions and with the composition. Yes, it sounds more 'together' more coherent, more as 'one' in the hall but frankly lots of nuance is lost. Of course as a stereo gear, my system cannot compete with the live sound in the room acoustics department. The room is mostly behind the speakers only. But it spreads quite wide and far (I sometimes localize some instruments 15-20m behind the speakers). I also believe the reflected sound coming to one's ears from all directions in a concert hall tends to muddle, obscure lots of fine detail.. That's actually the reason that in the times when I also used a multichannel amp I tended to watch music material in stereo. In case of jazz and rock the whole thing is even more obvious, Father. Have you ever witnessed an unamplified jazz concert during which, already in a middle size hall bass is hardly audible and OTOH the sound of the band is unbalanced and the trumpet screams into your ears in a way that makes you wanna leave ASAP.? I happened to witness some concerts like that in small jazz clubs, usually the sound is just... The Father: -What about amplified jazz and rock concerts.? Let me be mercilessly frank or ever blunt Father - the sound of the most PA systems, although some of them are quite good don't even come close to my gear, I'm sorry.. Of course hearing music live with a group of people, being able to react to it and see the interaction between the musicians and the audience is magical in a way. Yet on the pure audiophile level live music mostly sucks! One more thing, Father.. -Yes.? I don't believe in so called audio truth. That is beside these: AUDIO TRUTH (AUDIOQUEST) EMERALD X3 RCA cable 1.0m Which BTW also don't tell the truth.. -Explain please, son.. Doing it right now, Father. It's very simple. Have you ever had a chance to compare the sound of different microphones, Father.? Every and each of them has its own sound signature, just check out eg the Stereophile's Test CD (I think the first one) and you will see.. I mean hear.. The sound of a real instrument is treated by many like kind of paradise but the moment it's captured by the chosen recording mike is then the moment of leaving the 'paradise'. Here comes the first distortion or if you prefer - lie and the next elements of the audio chain only add to it. End of story. But guess what, Father.. I prefer it that way. It sounds nice, good, beautiful. The smooth, velvety highs the cymbals from the ECM recordings are a lie.. a beautiful lie.. I just love them.. Have you ever stood 2 or 3m from a real drum set.? Its sound is merciless, the bass drum seems to punch your stomach with its heavy fist and cymbals' piercing sound makes you wanna vomit... Same goes for many other instruments - trumpets, saxes etc. The recording engineers choose a given microphone usually simply to make the sound pleasant to our ears. And if they succeed - we love the recording. The fact that it's very far from the truth is meaningless. It's better that way! ECM sound - a lie, same goes for the all audiophile labels - lies, lies, lies.. beautiful lies. Old Living Stereo recordings, tons of tube and analogue distortion of the analogue and tube gear from the 50's! I love them! They sound great! Beautiful, beautiful lies! BTW some attack snake oil products which do not influence the sound in any way but they don't mind products which cost tens of thousands $$$ and ..very distinctly.. change the original sound.. Isn't that weird, Father.? But the worst is yet to come, Father... -WHAT COULD THAT BE, SON?!!! Father.. as is the case with most sins I've committed in this lifetime, I don't regret. They all, including this one make my life more colorful, exciting, beautiful, interesting, not boring and pleasant. In short, I choose to be a SINNER FOR LIFE. AMEN. Rexp, RickyV and Sloop John B 1 1 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 5, 2021 Author Share Posted October 5, 2021 Discuss, I'll join later.. Link to comment
NOMBEDES Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 The kingdoms of experience In the precious winds they rot While paupers change possessions Each one wishing for what the other has got And the princess and the prince Discuss what's real and what is not It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden Gates of Eden ~ Dylan Mike Rubin 1 In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 5, 2021 Author Share Posted October 5, 2021 All along the watchtower Princes kept the view While all the women came and went Barefoot servants, too Well, uh, outside in the cold distance A wildcat did growl Two riders were approaching And the wind began to howl.. Hey! DuckToller 1 Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Which just shows that people like listening to audio systems for different reasons - I, for one, have no interest in "nice" sound - which is probably why 'audiophile' recordings are the ones least often played by myself ... frankly, they're boring - to me 😜. Guess what? The "Have you ever stood 2 or 3m from a real drum set.? Its sound is merciless, the bass drum seems to punch your stomach with its heavy fist and cymbals' piercing sound makes you wanna vomit... Same goes for many other instruments - trumpets, saxes etc. " experience is what turns me on - the raw intensity of that impact is magic, is part of the reason why musicians love what they do. A system needs to be able to do that type of stuff, without making you run from the room - if it can, then the "nice stuff" is easy peasy, and shows itself in strong contrast ... botrytis 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 5, 2021 Author Share Posted October 5, 2021 38 minutes ago, fas42 said: 'audiophile' recordings are the ones least often played by myself ... frankly, they're boring - to me 😜. Same here, fas, been repeating for years that Chesky bros is the most boring label in the world. OTOH some of classical music on audiophile labels (RR, Telarc) is just fantastic! 40 minutes ago, fas42 said: the raw intensity of that impact is magic, is part of the reason why musicians love what they do. And sometimes get deaf. 42 minutes ago, fas42 said: A system needs to be able to do that type of stuff, without making you run from the room - if it can, then the "nice stuff" is easy peasy, and shows itself in strong contrast ... Believe me, my system is much more 'hard hitting' and merciless for the recordings than eg yours and is able to play really loud without distortion or compression (95db sensitivity speakers, my 80W amp is more than enough..). Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, sphinxsix said: Believe me, my system is much more 'hard hitting' and merciless for the recordings than eg yours and is able to play really loud without distortion or compression (95db sensitivity speakers, my 80W amp is more than enough..). Depends what you mean by "merciless" 🙂 - can you give an example of something where you would use this word? Yes, the speaker sensitivity and available power should give you tonnes of headroom ... Link to comment
Rexp Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 I enjoy a good live performance as much as a good recording, the experience is different of course. Regarding ECM, I'd take a live performance over their classical recordings any day. Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, fas42 said: Depends what you mean by "merciless" I mean.. Well, instead of repeating myself I will quote myself (scroll down if you have time) All the qualities of the speakers describe also qualities of the whole system. Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 26 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: I mean.. Well, instead of repeating myself I will quote myself (scroll down if you have time) All the qualities of the speakers describe also qualities of the whole system. Thanks! ... I've read the following posts, and indeed they sound like they perform extremely well - careful construction, and easy to drive to live levels guarantees that they will reveal everything about the recording, and the driving chain - "on the bright side of reality", though, is what I pause at; IME rigs sounding too "bright" is a clue, to me, that that there is possible room for improvement; that's the circumstances where I start to investigate finer areas of a system, to see where further opimisations can be made, 😉. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 If you prefer liste 15 hours ago, sphinxsix said: For decades the live sound has been kind of Holy Grail of the audiophile world. Says who? It seems to me that most audiophiles understand that there is a recording process. What were you expecting exactly? Audiophiles care about the quality of recordings and the quality of their system. Non-audiophiles care about the quality of the recordings, but are not obsessed about the quality of their systems. But I don't think anyone is under the illusion that they will recreate live sounds in their living room.if they claim the contrary, it's probably a figure of speech. That being said, a lot of audiophiles refer to individual instruments sounding "real" or "natural" when played through their system, but that is a different thing than saying the whole recording sounds live. I personally think it's a way of saying that the system does not introduce significant "distortions" vis à vis the recording. How can one tell? This has already been debated at length... botrytis 1 Link to comment
Popular Post GregWormald Posted October 6, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 6, 2021 The OP is spouting nonsense! There's nothing better than sitting in wet clothes, next to a sneezer and cougher, listening to the audience chat and move and rustle, and then paying an enormous amount for a drink and queueing for the rest room, while all time you could only get a seat at the back and off to one side. Live music is the best! 🤣🤣🤣 botrytis and Confused 1 1 Link to comment
Rexp Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 49 minutes ago, GregWormald said: The OP is spouting nonsense! There's nothing better than sitting in wet clothes, next to a sneezer and cougher, listening to the audience chat and move and rustle, and then paying an enormous amount for a drink and queueing for the rest room, while all time you could only get a seat at the back and off to one side. Live music is the best! 🤣🤣🤣 You didn't need to add the emojis... Link to comment
mfsoa Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 I always wondered why live, unamplified music is considered the ultimate reference when we can do so much better. Rexp 1 Link to comment
jcbenten Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 I think the only audiophile thing at a live event is the dynamics. I think that is very hard to reproduce at home. And even though @GregWormald gave the norm, I go to live music looking for the sublime experience: Jon Nakamatsu in Bass Concert Hall just after winning the Van Cliburn Gold Medal Them Crooked Vultures at ACL for their 2nd? 3rd? live show Civil Twilight at ACL on the big stage...who ever heard of them?? The first time I saw the Dandy Warhols at one of the first ACL shows...all of 20 of us at that stage The encore of Eddie Vedder's Ukulele tour at Bass concert hall with Glen Hansard and the roadies composing the the band.. Joe Richardson at an Irish bar across from the Driskill after my wife's company Christmas party... And a few others. That is what live music is. QNAP TS453Pro w/QLMS->Netgear Switch->Netgear RAX43 Router->Ethernet (50 ft)->Netgear switch->SBTouch ->SABAJ A10d->Linn Majik-IL (preamp)->Linn 2250->Linn Keilidh; Control Points: iPeng (iPad Air & iPhone); Also: Rega P3-24 w/ DV 10x5; OPPO 103; PC Playback: Foobar2000 & JRiver; Portable: iPhone 12 ProMax & Radio Paradise or NAS streaming; Sony NWZ ZX2 w/ PHA-3; SMSL IQ, Fiio Q5, iFi Nano iDSD BL; Garage: Edifier S1000DB Active Speakers Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 11 hours ago, fas42 said: "on the bright side of reality", though, is what I pause at; IME rigs sounding too "bright" is a clue, to me, that that there is possible room for improvement; that's the circumstances where I start to investigate finer areas of a system, to see where further opimisations can be made, 😉. Judging by a review of a journalist who knows them well, they are not brighter than eg contemporary Wilsons, actually have extremely similar balance (I didn't have a chance to directly compare the two). Careful amp (mainly) and source matching (they cannot be shrill or grainy, better not bright or the speakers will mercilessly show that) plus either a big room (35sq.m+) or slightly more dumped acoustically than usual. Eventually subtly EQing curve (JRiver in my case) for some shrill/bright recordings (I actually rarely use it). 7 hours ago, hopkins said: Says who? It would be easier to say who doesn't, and it includes this site. 7 hours ago, hopkins said: But I don't think anyone is under the illusion that they will recreate live sounds in their living room.if they claim the contrary, it's probably a figure of speech. I don't think it's only a poetical figure in the mouth of many, rather, like I said a Holy Grail of audio 7 hours ago, hopkins said: How can one tell? This has already been debated at length... That's right. 7 hours ago, GregWormald said: 🤣🤣🤣 6 hours ago, Rexp said: You didn't need to add the emojis... I (un?) fortunately can only see square shapes, I guess Chris censored them. 20 minutes ago, mfsoa said: I always wondered why live, unamplified music is considered the ultimate reference when we can do so much better. That is exactly the question I'm asking. We have at our disposal every possible microphone(s) placement, mix, all the possibilities of DSP and even the possibility of injecting tubes (forgive me Objectivist Father) into a studio gear chain, which eg Analogue Productions do and IMO the result is (probably not of the tubes alone) they make the best sounding remasters on the market. BTW I obviously understand that all those things can also add nasty stuff to the original sound or recording.. Link to comment
Popular Post mfsoa Posted October 6, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 6, 2021 Live music is great. I would never want to give back Jaco/Weather Report from the front row, I just don't want my stereo to sound like that. DuckToller and sphinxsix 2 Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 49 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: It would be easier to say who doesn't, and it includes this site. Even with the best recording and best equipment it is not physically possible to reproduce the sound waves of a live orchestra through a couple of speakers in your living room. Sorry to break the bad news. botrytis 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 47 minutes ago, hopkins said: Even with the best recording and best equipment it is not physically possible to reproduce the sound waves of a live orchestra through a couple of speakers in your living room. Luckily in most cases. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 17 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: Luckily in most cases. I'm sorry you have such a bad experience of concert halls and clubs. I really think you are in a minority here. Sure there are concert halls and clubs with bad acoustics, there's nothing new here. There is also more to seing an artist perform live than just audio quality. In conclusion, I don't really understand your problem... Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 "HE CAME BACK FROM HIS prayer to the cat on his lap. He fed the cat, he let her go out to the moonlight, and he hid in the pages of Abraham. Like one newly circumcised, he hid himself away, he waited in the trust of healing. Faces of women appeared, and they explained themselves to him, connecting feature to character, beauty to kindness. Various families came to him and showed him all the chairs he might sit in. ‘How can I say this gently?’ he said. ‘Though I love your company, your instructions are wasted here. I will always choose the woman who carries me off, I will always sit with the family of loneliness.’ Saying many words of encouragement his visitors departed, and he entered more deeply into his hiding. He asked for his heart to be focused toward the source of mercy, and he lifted up a corner, and he moved a millimetre forward under the shadow of the tabernacle of peace. His cat came back from the moonlight, flew softly to her place on his lap, and waited for him to come back from his prayer." Leonard Cohen, Book of Mercy sphinxsix 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 5 hours ago, hopkins said: I'm sorry you have such a bad experience of concert halls and clubs. I don't, I love live music, it's just that at home it sounds better on a regular basis. 5 hours ago, hopkins said: I really think you are in a minority here. I have never minded being in minority 5 hours ago, hopkins said: There is also more to seing an artist perform live than just audio quality Definitely but I can hear more at home than even in the hall regarded as one with very good acoustics. 5 hours ago, hopkins said: In conclusion, I don't really understand your problem... Do I sound as if I had a problem.? If so I must have expressed myself in a wrong way Cheers! Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 4 hours ago, christopher3393 said: Leonard Cohen One of few poets whose poems I happened to read in recent years. Old Jikan is really silent now.. christopher3393 1 Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 8 hours ago, hopkins said: Even with the best recording and best equipment it is not physically possible to reproduce the sound waves of a live orchestra through a couple of speakers in your living room. Sorry to break the bad news. Why do people think this is impossible? It's only sound waves, after all, and the microphones don't run and hide, when capturing the event in the cocert hall, etc. So, just reproduce what the microphones pick up - and it just falls into place ... 🙂 As I've said many times, what you get is that everything past the plane of the speakers is replaced by what's on the recording - so, as one example, you could be listening in a tiny room; "looking into" a massive space which could be literally a kilometer deep, if that is what the acoustics of the sound event was. It's not jarring to experience; the mind ignores the space you're listening in, and just takes in the 'projected' illusion. If this doesn't happen for a recording you play, then it's because the accuracy of the playback chain you're hearing it through is not high enough - it's as simple as that ... Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 Most systems can't do 'intensity' ... they distort too much, are unpleasant to listen to; so someone moves over, fairly quickly, and turns the volume down ... what you have to do is evolve a rig to the point where you want to turn the volume up, even more ... this is the tricky part, of course 😉 - and many people never get to this point ... Link to comment
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