The Computer Audiophile Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 View full article Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
audiobomber Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 Great question and great response! The description of why best measurements don't equate to best sound is not controversial among audiophiles, but is heresy to the ASR crowd. I bought one of the highly touted, measurement-pristine DAC's that objectivists love, and it sounded like crap. Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
mtan002 Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 Agreed with Zhao's point of view. Measurement method is just one way of assessing an equipment. Take it with a grain of salt. Trust your ears. Michael Tan Melbourne PowerConditioning: PS Audio UPC-200; Hdplex 300W Server: Windows 2019-CORE+AO3+Jriver24/HQPlayer Source: Mytek Brooklyn Amp: Audio-GD C501, AVA Set 120 Speakers: Spendor SP2, Tannoy Saturn S10 Desktop: W10+Topping D90+Stax SRS3100 Link to comment
Popular Post mourip Posted August 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 26, 2021 2 hours ago, audiobomber said: Great question and great response! The description of why best measurements don't equate to best sound is not controversial among audiophiles, but is heresy to the ASR crowd. I bought one of the highly touted, measurement-pristine DAC's that objectivists love, and it sounded like crap. It has been controversial enough here that we had to create a separate forum for "Objective-Fi" so that the rest of us could move on. That was one of the best moves that ever happened on AS. mfsoa, The Computer Audiophile, One and a half and 2 others 2 3 "Don't Believe Everything You Think" System Link to comment
luisma Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, mourip said: It has been controversial enough here that we had to create a separate forum for "Objective-Fi" so that the rest of us could move on. That was one of the best moves that ever happened on AS. Sorry, separate forum? Could you please explain? I guess I'm outdated Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted August 26, 2021 Author Share Posted August 26, 2021 Just now, luisma said: Sorry, separate forum? Could you please explain? I guess I'm outdated luisma 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
luisma Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 Thank you Chris, makes sense. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted August 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 26, 2021 Not so impressed. There mostly isn't an "original analog recording". There's a digital recording. So there's no analog record to reproduce, just a digital one to undergo D/A conversion. And if there is an analog recording such as a tape, please don't tell me that tape recording isn't distorted and full of noise by definition. It was that way before it was digitized. Simplistic measurements don't tell the whole story. But better designers do more sophisticated measurements that tell them more. There's a lot of equipment that measures horribly and is regarded as "good sounding" or even "audiophile". I don't buy it. Why pay good money for someody else's euphonic distortion? This post sounds in part like an excuse for people who can't properly engineer equipment. I want products that measure well AND sound good. The best equipment does that. That's real accuracy. Anything else is substandard, and you are fooling yourself that you are listening to something that's "high fidelity". You aren't. You are listening to something inaccurate that "sounds good", but doesn't actually properly recreate the original. mitch751, semente, botrytis and 4 others 3 4 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post mitch751 Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 a) Good Measure / Good sounding (audiophile) b) Poor Measure / Good sounding (audiophile) c) Poor Measure / poor sounding (audiophile) d) Good Measure / poor sounding (audiophile) Which one to pick ? MikeJazz and Ben-M 2 B&W 800 Diamond D2, Goldmund Eidos Reference CD, Goldmund Telos 600, Goldmund Mimesis 32, Cello Audio Palette MIV.[br]MacBook Pro, LIO, Mytek 192, HD800, Luxman SQ-38U, Luxman MQ-88u Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted August 27, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 44 minutes ago, firedog said: Not so impressed. There mostly isn't an "original analog recording". There's a digital recording. So there's no analog record to reproduce, just a digital one to undergo D/A conversion. And if there is an analog recording such as a tape, please don't tell me that tape recording isn't distorted and full of noise by definition. It was that way before it was digitized. Simplistic measurements don't tell the whole story. But better designers do more sophisticated measurements that tell them more. There's a lot of equipment that measures horribly and is regarded as "good sounding" or even "audiophile". I don't buy it. Why pay good money for someody else's euphonic distortion? This post sounds in part like an excuse for people who can't properly engineer equipment. I want products that measure well AND sound good. The best equipment does that. That's real accuracy. Anything else is substandard, and you are fooling yourself that you are listening to something that's "high fidelity". You aren't. You are listening to something inaccurate that "sounds good", but doesn't actually properly recreate the original. Wow, tell us what you really think :~) I enjoy publishing stuff like this because it gives everyone helpful insight about products. The info is useful to people who agree with the approach and for those like you who don’t. I think you may be reading into things a bit or at least taking decades of audiophile experience and piling it into one response, whether it fits or not. The gist I got from reading this is that Zhao doesn’t believe measurements are everything. Only a data point. We should also keep in mind that English isn’t his first language and I adjusted many sentences for grammar. I don’t believe that changed anything he said, but audiophiles tend to hang on every word and that should be done carefully here. Anyway, thanks for the honest reply. No product is for everyone. I like having options. richard_crl032 and mikicasellas 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted August 27, 2021 Author Share Posted August 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, mitch751 said: a) Good Measure / Good sounding (audiophile) b) Poor Measure / Good sounding (audiophile) c) Poor Measure / poor sounding (audiophile) d) Good Measure / poor sounding (audiophile) Which one to pick ? That I don’t understand, but I’m willing to be educated so I get the joke :~) mikicasellas 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Blake Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 This is just Part 1 of a four part series. At least read all four parts before setting fire to everything. feelingears, Confused and The Computer Audiophile 3 Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC Link to comment
Popular Post fas42 Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 1 hour ago, firedog said: Not so impressed. There mostly isn't an "original analog recording". There's a digital recording. So there's no analog record to reproduce, just a digital one to undergo D/A conversion. What is meant by "original analog recording" is actually, "original analog signal" - that is, what emerges as the output from a microphone diaphragm responding to vibrations in the air - it may be immediately turned into digital, within the microphone, but what was 'recorded' was an analogue behaviour of the world, by an analogue mechanism. Probably the only true digital recording is that of digital synthesizers and similar, where the output of the processing circuit is captured as numbers. George47, mikicasellas and toddrhodes 3 Link to comment
Rexp Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 Unfortunately the delicate analog signal is often destroyed in the A to D or mastering process. The question is, can hardware/software fix the damage. I don't think so. Iving 1 Link to comment
Popular Post audiobomber Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 The human voice, a sax, a drum kt, all analog, not digital. Microphones, amps and recording equipment colour the sound. What I want from my system is that it keeps me interested in the music and does nothing to annoy me. Confused, Iving, mourip and 3 others 5 1 Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 38 minutes ago, Rexp said: Unfortunately the delicate analog signal is often destroyed in the A to D or mastering process. The question is, can hardware/software fix the damage. I don't think so. I would disagree ... of course, 😜. The 'delicacy' is in fact fully captured, in the A/D step - the information is completely available, in the stored numbers. What goes awry is that the playback chains allow too much self-induced, and other interference noise to intrude - and the 'delicacy' is completely absent, in the listening. It only takes competent playback of a recording given up as a disaster, to appreciate how much damage is done to the SQ by inadequate reproduction setups, 🙂. Link to comment
Popular Post sdolezalek Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 As a statement of "philosophy" I think this was actually a good start. I think Firedog is jumping the gun on where we go from here. I would certainly agree that measurements aren't everything (particularly because we don't know exactly what to measure and our instruments require us to choose certain data points to ascribe imporance to). Nor, of course, is a set of "golden ears" particularly when my bronze ears are different from your silver ones and so and so's platinum ears. But, if we do something that sounds good but measures poorly, I like to understand "why?" One of the things I have always enjoyed in my exchanges with Jussi (Miska) with regard to HQ Player is that he can explain the mathematical science of what his filters are doing, explain the tradeoffs involved, explain why one might sound better with a particular DAC than another, and after all that still says "but you need to listen for what sounds best to you." I hope that in Parts 2, 3 and 4 we will hear more about how Alvin Chee thinks about those tradeoffs in a way that allows us to decide whether that results in something that should sound better to all ears rather than just to Alvin Chee's ears. ;-) Summit, DuckToller, The Computer Audiophile and 2 others 1 4 Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6) Link to comment
semente Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 [quote]Does the low-cost DAC sound better than the higher cost DAC?[/quote] “Sound better” to whom, the designer? There’s no such thing as a universal “sounds better”... It’s a personal, subjective call, a matter of preference. Summit 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Wow, tell us what you really think :~) I enjoy publishing stuff like this because it gives everyone helpful insight about products. The info is useful to people who agree with the approach and for those like you who don’t. I think you may be reading into things a bit or at least taking decades of audiophile experience and piling it into one response, whether it fits or not. The gist I got from reading this is that Zhao doesn’t believe measurements are everything. Only a data point. We should also keep in mind that English isn’t his first language and I adjusted many sentences for grammar. I don’t believe that changed anything he said, but audiophiles tend to hang on every word and that should be done carefully here. Anyway, thanks for the honest reply. No product is for everyone. I like having options. I've got nothing against his products, and I didn't comment on them. I've never heard them. Based on both objective and subjective reviews, I'm sure they are very good. AFAIR, they actually measure well also. "Measurements" is a catch all term that can mean different things. Bruno Putzey has talked about how he can do a suite of measurements on amps - including some unconventional ones that test the amp in various extreme or unusual scenarios - and can tell which ones will sound good. And those are amps of all types - Class D, Class A/B, even tube. He says if you actually know how to measure the true performance, the measurements are a good predictor. He's also talked about how you can voice an amp to get the sound you want - for instance, he said he could make his Class D amps have a "Macintosh" sound if he wanted to. So I'm not arguing that listening to an amp and creating the sound you want is meaningless or wrong. That's fine. But it should ALSO measure well. The answers here are a bit of a straw man argument: "let's talk about a simplistic set of measurements and then conclude that measurements can't tell us meaningful stuff about a device". My problem is that there's a lot of expensive equipment sold under the extreme "trust your ears" philosophy that actually measures poorly. IMO, it's just an exercise in creating expectation bias so that sighted listening gets people to put out big bucks for something that isn't sonically superior - and possibly sonically inferior. If people like the sound of that stuff - that's great. I'm not trying to protect them from themselves or tell them what to like. But just don't tell me that your colored playback is somehow superior. It isn't - it's just your personal taste. And btw, I do the same thing with lots of my listening if I don't like the sound of the source material - I color it to sound how I like with DSP and PEQ. But I don't claim that it's anything but a personally euphonic, less accurate form of playback. And don't get me wrong. I don't think the measurements over at ASR or Soundstage or Stereophile are the end all and be all of choosing a component. But I also think there's a lot of well designed, relatively inexpensive equipment that measures extremely well and and also sounds good. Is it as good as the best stuff? No. But it's not that far off. My Chinese DAC/streamer in my second setup that costs under a $grand is as good as some more expensive stuff. It's not the ultimate, but it's very good. There are lots of "trust your ears" people who couldn't pick out some of these less expensive components in a blind test vs. some of the much more expensive audiophile stuff. Partially b/c some of the expensive stuff isn't actually better, and partially b/c few audiophiles actually have the "golden ears" they think they do. They just are afraid to setup a situation where that will be shown to be true. Summit, semente and charleski 1 1 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post StreamFidelity Posted August 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2021 8 hours ago, firedog said: This post sounds in part like an excuse for people who can't properly engineer equipment. Do you mean Denafrips? Then take a look at Amir's measurement results: https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/denafrips-ares-ii-usb-r2r-dac-review.11166/ His conclusion: Quote It has become a common retort to say that R2Rs measure poorly. Indeed even the manufacturer says this. Good thing that is not the case here as that is just an excuse. The Denafrips ARES II has very good performance as an R2R DAC. And its faults if any, should not be audible. So if you are itching to have an R2R/custom boutique DAC, the ARES II makes a good candidates. I have great respect for engineers who think outside the box and are humble. And that's what this article is about, as I understand it: Not everything we hear in reality can be measured. 😉 mikicasellas, Summit, LoryWiv and 1 other 4 Grigg Audio Solutions Owner StreamFidelitys Setup: Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T+A M10 | T+A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC & Server | GigaWatt PC4-EVO+ | JCAT OPTIMO S ATX | FARAD Super10 & Super3 | Keces P8 | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | fis Audio Cables | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A Link to comment
firedog Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 6 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said: Do you mean Denafrips? Then take a look at Amir's measurement results: https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/denafrips-ares-ii-usb-r2r-dac-review.11166/ His conclusion: I have great respect for engineers who think outside the box and are humble. And that's what this article is about, as I understand it: Not everything we hear in reality can be measured. 😉 Again, I made no comment about Denafrips equipment. I was reacting to the ideas expressed in the post, which were general and also didn't specifically reference his DACs. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said: Not everything we hear in reality can be measured. 😉 Especially expectation bias.. Very hard to measure. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
StreamFidelity Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 I agree with your footnote. 😁 @firedog All absolute statements about audio are false Grigg Audio Solutions Owner StreamFidelitys Setup: Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T+A M10 | T+A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC & Server | GigaWatt PC4-EVO+ | JCAT OPTIMO S ATX | FARAD Super10 & Super3 | Keces P8 | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | fis Audio Cables | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A Link to comment
Rcanoe Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 I always enjoy insights provided by an audio engineer's description of how things are measured. My father brought me into the world of audio more than 40 years ago. When he helped me purchase my first system his advice was don't believe the specs. We spent days going from stereo store to stereo store in downtown Toronto auditioning systems. Ended up with a system with lousy specs but great sound for an entry level receiver. Now I look at expensive "stuff" but it's still about the audition. I have dodged the bullet many times by auditioning systems with good reviews and manufacturing pedigree and ending up passing for something else. My audio ears/brain/tastes are unique. Looking forward to PART 2. Cheers The Computer Audiophile 1 Mac Mini 2007: 1.83GHz Core 2 Duo, 3 Gig RAM, 500 Gig 5400 RPM HD[br]OSX 10.6.6, TimeMachine Off, Airport Off, Dedicated to Music[br]HAGUSB USB-->S/PDIF[br]Players: Audirvana, ITunes[br]Music Library: RedBook 16/44 WAV[br]Bryston BP26DA Preamp/DAC[br]Bryston 3BSST Amp[br]B&W 804s Loudspeakers[br] Link to comment
Chesty Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 I enjoyed the essay, since I think I was able to follow it on the whole. Quite often I am left behind when reading such articles written by electronic experts. I am looking forward to reading the following parts. richard_crl032 1 Link to comment
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