Digital streaming optimisation with EtherRegen - ENO filter Vs Master clock Vs sonore optical module

[mbj666]

hi all,

 

after some advice/views am looking to further optimise my hifi etherregen digital network setup 

 

currently is router with LPS> 8m AQ cinnamon Ethernet > ERegen with MCRU pinnicle LPS > Chord Super Sarum Ethernet > innuous zenith mk 3 > innuos pheonix (chord USB cables) > CHORD DAVE DAC 

router also feeds > switch > Wifi Mesh system aswell with loads of other stuff hanging off it with SMPS, etc 

 

having spent a LOT of time reading, thoughts were 1 of the following (maybe more than one over time) but not sure how would best work with the ERegen in my system 

 

1) add an afterdark master clock an LPS to the ERegen

2) Use a Sonore opticalModule with LPS to connect via fibre to my ERegen (to isolate system fully from rest of my home network)

3) use the ENO Ag network filter with my ERegen 

 

any advice or feedback from those that have tried combos with the ERegen greatly appreciated 

 

 

thanks

 

Mat 

[plissken]

2 hours ago, mbj666 said:

1) add an afterdark master clock

 

Whom ever told you to add an external clock to a switch typically won't understand how data networks operate.

 

All your play back is from data at rest and needs only the clock on your DAC to reconstruct the samples with the proper timing.

[ASRMichael]

28 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Whom ever told you to add an external clock to a switch typically won't understand how data networks operate.

 

All your play back is from data at rest and needs only the clock on your DAC to reconstruct the samples with the proper timing.

Just so I’m clear you’re saying the only clock that matters is the DAC’s clock? All other clocks are irrelevant? 

[mbj666]

the pheonix usb reclocker made a real +ve difference to sound quality as did adding the etherregen switch which also has a reclocker (ER notable when streaming from quobuz) 

 

was after any peeps experience with the products when used with the etherregen switch or any other tips welcomed :) 

 

 

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, mbj666 said:

the pheonix usb reclocker made a real +ve difference to sound quality as did adding the etherregen switch which also has a reclocker (ER notable when streaming from quobuz) 

 

was after any peeps experience with the products when used with the etherregen switch or any other tips welcomed :) 

 

If you are going purely by SQ then try each option and select. There is no measurement based way, nor theory, to select among these options. Every ethernet switch reclocks. No one can tell you what you hear.

 

The option which would make the most sense to me would be the opticalModule but the etherregen claims to block leakage currents aka common mode noise so unsure why it would help. You might be good to go already.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

Just so I’m clear you’re saying the only clock that matters is the DAC’s clock? All other clocks are irrelevant? 

I think that the Etherregen claims to have an excellent internal clock. My suspicion is that any external clock, regardless of how good, could improve on an excellent internal clock. But I just know what I'm told, I haven't seen anything like eye patterns. Clocks and ethernet signals aren't magic, they have defined measurable properties. Its a network device not a DAC nor amplifier.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

Just so I’m clear you’re saying the only clock that matters is the DAC’s clock? All other clocks are irrelevant? 

 

I'm saying an external clock on an Ethernet switch doesn't matter and whomever is saying it does doesn't understand how data networks operate when it comes to non-realtime playback.

 

Now there are switches with IEEE 1588 V1 and V2 PTP. But that is an entirely other beast and not meant for simple re-play systems.

[R1200CL]

11 hours ago, mbj666 said:

any advice or feedback from those that have tried combos with the ERegen greatly appreciated 

You have got advice from the only 2 persons here at AS that deny the benefit of EtherRegen with or without an external clock. Uptone soon will have 3000 happy EtherRegen owners. 
 

Option 1 is what I would do. 
A second EtherRegen instead of the opticalModule maybe as a possible option. (30 days money back). 
And remember to purchase the 50 ohm version. (And send the 75ohm back 😉). 

[plissken]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You have got advice from the only 2 persons here at AS that deny the benefit of EtherRegen with or without an external clock.

 

I deny it based on real world testing. Try to refute my video example. You tell everyone here how the eR affected the SQ even though we don't need it connected while playing back. By disconnecting the eR I've purposefully introduced the largest source of jitter possible. What possible effect can the eR or any switch, external clocking applied or not, have on the data once it's delivered.

 

With all due respect R1200CL you don't know what you are talking about.

 

 

[Cebolla]

22 hours ago, mbj666 said:

currently is router with LPS> 8m AQ cinnamon Ethernet > ERegen with MCRU pinnicle LPS > Chord Super Sarum Ethernet > innuous zenith mk 3 > innuos pheonix (chord USB cables) > CHORD DAVE DAC 

router also feeds > switch > Wifi Mesh system aswell with loads of other stuff hanging off it with SMPS, etc

 

19 hours ago, mbj666 said:

the pheonix usb reclocker made a real +ve difference to sound quality as did adding the etherregen switch which also has a reclocker (ER notable when streaming from quobuz) 

 

Definitely all the realtime audio is generated by Innuous Zenith Mk 3 and is output via USB cable to the Pheonix USB reclocker in that setup. Absolutely no realtime audio comes from Qobuz's online server, which only provides the Zenith with bog standard FLAC audio archive file tracks over the network.

 

The ER would be as notable with Qobuz's FLAC files as it would be with your online bank statement files. 

[R1200CL]

@plissken

The way you use EtherRegen, there probably isn’t any benefit. We have discussed this before in a couple of treads. You do not stream your music the way most other people do. When I pull my cable, music stops. See also here:

For the rest of us, John’s innovative developments, has help several in achieving better SQ in the digital chain for a price point most can afford. 
 

 

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, plissken said:

 

I deny it based on real world testing. Try to refute my video example. You tell everyone here how the eR affected the SQ even though we don't need it connected while playing back. By disconnecting the eR I've purposefully introduced the largest source of jitter possible. What possible effect can the eR or any switch, external clocking applied or not, have on the data once it's delivered.

 

With all due respect R1200CL you don't know what you are talking about.

 

 

I’ll give you 1 million dollars if you come to my house & listen to an EtherRegen. Money is waiting! 😂

[plissken]

40 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

You do not stream your music the way most other people do. When I pull my cable, music stops. See also here:

 

The music stops because the buffer is short. There is still a buffer.

[mbj666]

will take a look at the other bits of info posted thanks 

 

all i can say is what i hear and ER with LPS definitely improved SQ when streaming quobuz via internet and off local innuous drive directly which is where my thoughts on the ENO / sonore optical isolation come from as attributed this latter part down the the ER moat design (also noticed that adding an LPS to my router helped also, which was test of noise still getting through)

 

reclocker wise the pheonix gave another jump in performance again much more pronounced than the ER though 

 

anyone tried the ENO network filter? 

[plissken]

49 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

See also here:

For the rest of us, John’s innovative developments, has help several in achieving better SQ in the digital chain for a price point most can afford. 
 

 

 

I've seen the thread. Again you don't understand what you are even talking about and that thread proves it. Miska, John, Jabbr, Paul, have all tried in that thread to INFORM you.

 

Stupidity is ignorance left willfully uncorrected.

 

Also: If you have a play back setup that has buffering in the millisecond range than you have a sub-optimal setup. I like products that are able to take advantage of the best technology has to offer: Multi-rate GBe (1 / 2.5 / 5 / 10), wireless, optical, copious amounts of RAM for buffer (Tidal, JRiver, some others I'm sure) that will take advantage of the fact I can put 300+MB/s on the wire and then be done with it.

 

What again are John's innovations? A really slow, really hot, really expensive, switch.

[ASRMichael]

37 minutes ago, plissken said:

What again are John's innovations? A really slow, really hot, really expensive, switch.

Did your keyboard break? I’ll finish your sentence for you. 

What again are John's innovations? A really slow, really hot, really expensive, switch. That sounds amazing. 

 

[plissken]

39 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

What again are John's innovations? A really slow, really hot, really expensive, switch. That sounds amazing. 

 

Lol.... Claims presented w/o evidence are just as easily dismissed w/o evidence.

[ASRMichael]

23 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Lol.... Claims presented w/o evidence are just as easily dismissed w/o evidence.

Do you have evidence to the contrary? 3000 happy users versus your opinion. The 3000 have at least tried it. You haven’t. Let’s leave it at that. 
 

Worth a laugh mind you! 

[plissken]

1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

Do you have evidence to the contrary? 3000 happy users versus your opinion. The 3000 have at least tried it. You haven’t. Let’s leave it at that. 
 

Worth a laugh mind you! 

 

I just posted a video of playback happening w/o the eR or Aruba switch even plugged in. That's no opinion. It's proof.

 

Did the sound get better, worse, or stay the same when I plugged/unplugged the eR?

 

Did the sound get better, worse, or stay the same when I plugged/unplugged the Aruba?

 

I know about 3000 people that don't believe in the Covid Vaccine either. Lets leave it at that. I don't give a fig what 3000 Luddites think. 

[Johnnydev]

Pfffffff

[Meridimac]

On 8/23/2021 at 11:50 AM, mbj666 said:

..having spent a LOT of time reading, thoughts were 1 of the following (maybe more than one over time) but not sure how would best work with the ERegen in my system 

 

1) add an afterdark master clock an LPS to the ERegen

2) Use a Sonore opticalModule with LPS to connect via fibre to my ERegen (to isolate system fully from rest of my home network)

3) use the ENO Ag network filter with my ERegen

Back to the question at hand: for me,

#1  hasn't happened, so no opinion

#2 didn't hear much sonic synergy, but I left a fiber link in place anyway to the audio-only network segment

#3 ENO Ag system alone outperformed ERegen, so I choose to leave ENO last device into my best Roon endpoint while still using the Uptone ahead of a Cisco 2960 switch serving both that and also the second best endpoint for another system. Unlike some others, I do NOT hear any compromise using them together.

[mbj666]

32 minutes ago, Meridimac said:

Back to the question at hand: for me,

#1  hasn't happened, so no opinion

#2 didn't hear much sonic synergy, but I left a fiber link in place anyway to the audio-only network segment

#3 ENO Ag system alone outperformed ERegen, so I choose to leave ENO last device into my best Roon endpoint while still using the Uptone ahead of a Cisco 2960 switch serving both that and also the second best endpoint for another system. Unlike some others, I do NOT hear any compromise using them together.

thx appreciate your insight :) 

[Billy_SP]

On 8/24/2021 at 2:51 PM, plissken said:

Stupidity is ignorance left willfully uncorrected.

I am normally a lurker but you are going too far trying to impose your opinion.

Opinions come from experiences, and as experiences are different, there are many different opinions.

Talking about stupidity because somebody has a different opinion is not only rude, but not smart.

 

You have some some knowledge and experience on your side, but you don't have ALL the knowledge and experience.  I am an electronic engineer arguing in a different language than my mother tongue, and I don't need measurements to tell me when something improves the sound of my system, because I know it intimately.  In the same way I don't need measurements to tell me if the sun is out, or my food salty.  Music is for the enjoyment of my senses, not a lab experiment (If you dig measurements, knock yourself out).

 

I have tried most of the upgrades mentioned. 1) I installed an EtherRegen and the noise floor went down.  Bass gained definition.  Hi frequency glare decreased.  Very noticeable.   2)  I then proceeded to replace the power supply and I could easily tell it improved the noise floor, i could also hear more detail.  3)  When I installed an external clock (AfetrDark) with a Farad Super 3 power supply. again everything got better, up another notch.  The music was more full bodied.  I continued experimenting with different ethernet cables, sometimes the sound was too bright, sometimes too dark.  4)  Then I tested the ENO Acoustic filter.  Noise floor went down even further.  This revealed more detail, but the high frequencies were more pleasant.  Not rolled off, just gentle highs, making it more engaging.  5) Then I  installed Finisair modules and brought fiber to the EtherRegen.  Now I gained a deeper soundstage, more separation between instruments.  Most holographic soundstage I ever had.  6)  When I thought I was done, and just for fun, I tested another switch, the SOtM SNH-10g, fully upgraded, with and external power supply SPS-1000 also upgraded.  Damn! it got a little better and I could hear even more details I never noticed before in the music I like.

 

Notice that to make the story short I did not mention all the times a change was for the worse, like using too many silver plated ethernet cables, inverting the order of the cascading switches, using cheap cables for power supplies and clocks, or using cheap power cables and power supplies, etc.

 

Good luck trying to deny my experience with your measurements and theories.  And don't come to me with BS about psychoacoustics and confirmation bias.  It took me a busy year of endlessly testing back and forth and bringing friends (experienced dealers and audiophile) to listen and criticize the sound to reach where I am now.  Visitors can hardly distinguish between the same recording in Tidal vs a local HD file in my NAS or a CD played in a high end player.  I will not deny your experiences, those are yours to learn.  And I welcome your sharing of your experiences and opinions, but don't deny the other's experiences just because they don't fit your understanding. Intelligent people are “willing to accept and consider other views with value and broad-mindedness” and that they are “open to alternative solutions.”

[plissken]

20 minutes ago, Billy_SP said:

Opinions come from experiences, and as experiences are different, there are many different opinions.

 

Facts don't care about opinions.

 

I'll trust your ears as much as you trust yours when you do this blind.

[Billy_SP]

Some other points I would like to clarify:

 

1) I am using the Fiber/EtherRegen/SOtM SNH-10G/ENO in cascade, one after the other, in that order.

2) In my system, EtherRegen -> SOtM sound better than the other way around.  More full bodied.

3) ETherRegen + Eno = Not so good.  But put the SOtM switch in the middle and everything improves.  Now the ENO at the end of the chain has a smaller effect, but still positive enough for me to want to keep it. There is a better synergy (in my system) between the SOtM and the ENO.

4) Others prefer the sound of one or two SOtM in cascade.

5) Others have reported that a different order of devices gave them better results, which leads me to believe each individual should test their own system and decide.

6) Monomode fiber sounds better than multimode.  There is a theory about the reflections inside the fiber that explains this.