Article: Using HQPlayer With Aurender and Other Music Servers

[The Computer Audiophile]

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Definitely not for for the faint of heart!

[JoeWhip]

Way over my head! I feel so dumb! 😜

[seeteeyou]

54 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I still don't know of a solution that can accept USB audio from a music server and send that on to a PC for DSP or convert it into Ravenna.

 

using a Raspberry Pi 4 as a USB DSP-DAC

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/341590-using-raspberry-pi-4-usb-dsp-dac.html

 

Playback Windows Audio on a Pi4 over USB ver1.zip

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/341590-using-raspberry-pi-4-usb-dsp-dac-8.html#post5904418

 

I guess that might be the closest thing out there?

 

As always the detection of changing sampling rates could be tricky.

 

There's yet another example that looked like this

 

https://imxdev.gitlab.io/tutorial/Audio_loopback_between_two_imx_using_USB_UAC2/

 

Someone was trying to work on a new version but that didn't go anywhere since 2017

 

https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/cover/848755/

https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/patch/848754/

https://www.mind.be/fosdem19/2019-02-03-FOSDEM2019-C-usb-audio-class-3.html

 

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22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm also working an article using HQPlayer embedded to receive UPnP audio from other music servers and output that to an audio device. This could even be direct from a NAS or from one of the many great music servers that outputs UPnP/DLNA.

 

That's awesome, I'm looking forward to that article because someone else reported that streaming from JRMC to HQPlayer Embedded via UPnP turned out to sound pretty darn good

 

https://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?13157-piCorePlayer6-1-0-Xenomai-44-1-48KHz雙機入門簡易安裝教學&p=244284#post244284

 

Rooted Android devices with an app called AirMusic could stream Apple Music to HQPlayer Embedded via UPnP, I guess that's a fairly decent solution when compared to other alternatives.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

using a Raspberry Pi 4 as a USB DSP-DAC

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/341590-using-raspberry-pi-4-usb-dsp-dac.html

 

Playback Windows Audio on a Pi4 over USB ver1.zip

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/341590-using-raspberry-pi-4-usb-dsp-dac-8.html#post5904418

 

I guess that might be the closest thing out there?

 

As always the detection of changing sampling rates could be tricky.

 

There's yet another example that looked like this

 

https://imxdev.gitlab.io/tutorial/Audio_loopback_between_two_imx_using_USB_UAC2/

 

Someone was trying to work on a new version but that didn't go anywhere since 2017

 

https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/cover/848755/

https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/patch/848754/

https://www.mind.be/fosdem19/2019-02-03-FOSDEM2019-C-usb-audio-class-3.html

 

---

 

 

That's awesome, I'm looking forward to that article because someone else reported that streaming from JRMC to HQPlayer Embedded via UPnP turned out to sound pretty darn good

 

https://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?13157-piCorePlayer6-1-0-Xenomai-44-1-48KHz雙機入門簡易安裝教學&p=244284#post244284

 

Rooted Android devices with an app called AirMusic could stream Apple Music to HQPlayer Embedded via UPnP, I guess that's a fairly decent solution when compared to other alternatives.

 

Good stuff @seeteeyou. I'm looking at the Pi solution you linked to right now. 

 

Sometimes it's fun to dig into this and get our hands dirty, while other times it's just fun to press play and not thing about it. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Looking at the Pi solution, it has the right idea, but requires software installation on the host music server. This won't work with a Linux server that doesn't allow root access by end users unfortunately.

[AudioDoctor]

Geez, speaking of convoluted...

 

Manufacturers: It doesn't work that way...

Chris: I'm going to make it work that way...

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Geez, speaking of convoluted...

 

Manufacturers: It doesn't work that way...

Chris: I'm going to make it work that way...

 

Ha!

 

[Rt66indierock]

Very timely for me, I'm moving in a couple of months and will need a bit more room correction than I now use.

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[JoeWhip]

50 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Geez, speaking of convoluted...

 

Manufacturers: It doesn't work that way...

Chris: I'm going to make it work that way...

That is what makes Chris who he is, he never accepts no for an answer!

[Danny Kaey]

Someone please sell me a code book... 

 

Marx Bros Day At the Races - YouTube

 

 

 

 

[Fyper]

Very interesting. Thanks for this.

But it looks like a lot of efforts for not much: if you have to use a PC in such a set up you need to make sure that the sound quality and/or the navigation software provide real added value compared to a PC also used as a source.

I would think the main interest of using a standalone player is precisely not to have to go through the use of a PC and have a ready to play solution.

That being said, it's a shame that these network players do not include a digital loop to insert a DSP processor like the old Slimdevice Transporter use to have. Now that DRC and upsampling is common use, it should come as a standard.

Looks to me that your idea of having your NAS/server compute the DRC and HQPlayer is a simpler idea, Upnp or not.

[BrownMagic]

Roon => HQP => HQP NAA running on a intel pc stick => Holo May has been the easiest way for me to enjoy 1.5M PCM on my may. Roon core and HQP run can run on the same windows or mac. Without Roon, I dont think I would have ventured into the world of HQP. 

[macuniverse]

On 8/19/2021 at 1:49 AM, Fyper said:

Now that DRC and upsampling is common use, it should come as a standard.

^ that

 

That's the reason I don't use my MicroRendu anymore. Rather than using another extra device (MicroRendu which cannot do DSP) I just connect a  repurposed old Macbook Pro to my DAC directly. For DSP filters (Acourate FIR filters in my case) I use system-wide HLC (Hang Loose Convolver). Remote controlling done via Screen Share from a current Macbook Pro.

 

For local files I use Audirvana (v3.x) and HLC AU plugin which changes sample rates as needed.

[bbosler]

Fascinating, I can't believe I didn't see trying this path this when I was trying (unsuccessfully) to integrate HQP with an Innuos Zenith. 🙄

 

so if I understand ... this requires

 

1. a server capable of communicating using Ravenna, is this limited to Aurender or Merging Technologies?
2. a Merging Technology box of some sort on the network to function as the master clock, am I correct that this will be a several $1000 piece of it?
3. doe it require an NAA implementation of HQP or could you have a USB DAC direct to your PC ?

 

 

I really don't see where this is worth the hassle when you can just use any number of  programs on your CAPs PC as the music server. (I know you mentioned that) . Even if Aurender is somehow a superior sounding server, don't you lose that superiority by funneling the output through another server running additional software that is going to up sample and apply convolution? If it is all just so you can use the  Aurender interface seems again to me not worth the hassle just for that.

 

I see the fun in getting it to all work. I don't see where you gain anything by doing it this way 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, bbosler said:

Fascinating, I can't believe I didn't see trying this path this when I was trying (unsuccessfully) to integrate HQP with an Innuos Zenith. 

With an Innuos, you could go AES out to a Merging HAPI then Ravenna to an HQP server. The HAPI would be a D to D and clock. 
 

10 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I really don't see where this is worth the hassle when you can just use any number of  programs on your CAPs PC as the music server. (I know you mentioned that) . Even if Aurender is somehow a superior sounding server, don't you lose that superiority by funneling the output through another server running additional software that is going to up sample and apply convolution? If it is all just so you can use the  Aurender interface seems again to me not worth the hassle just for that

It isn’t for everybody. 

[LarryMagoo]

I  too use custom made DSP solutions for my system as in convolutions installed in Roon.  They work great.  It s allows lower frequencies to play nice with the rest of the Freg Resp. and hear all the bass detail the system is capable of delivering.   I guess I'm not sure why this is not a popular option?

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, LarryMagoo said:

I  too use custom made DSP solutions for my system as in convolutions installed in Roon.  They work great.  It s allows lower frequencies to play nice with the rest of the Freg Resp. and hear all the bass detail the system is capable of delivering.   I guess I'm not sure why this is not a popular option?

Yeah, DSP is so good now. I can’t believe more people don’t use it. 

[bbosler]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

With an Innuos, you could go AES out to a Merging HAPI then Ravenna to an HQP server. The HAPI would be a D to D and clock. 

 

Pretty sure the  Innous only have  ethernet and USB .

 

Not trying to bust your chops, but I really am trying to understand why anybody would pay big $$ for a streamer then process the hell out of the stream. I thought one paid big bucks for a streamer because the digital output was somehow better than you can get from "lesser" streamers?  Seems counterproductive to pay for an expensive streamer then run the output through several more boxes before the signal gets to your DAC. 

 

Are you saying that the Aurender feeding HQP this way sounds better than Roon or some other program feeding HQP with the same settings? Again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just don't understand the purpose of the exercise other than to say you got it to work. .. which is fine

 

I understand it's "not for everybody, I just don't see why anybody who wanted HQP would go to such lengths and $$  when there are a multitude of one box solutions..... of course other than just for the fun of doing it

 

thanks for pushing the envelope though

[The Computer Audiophile]

33 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

Pretty sure the  Innous only have  ethernet and USB .

 

Not trying to bust your chops, but I really am trying to understand why anybody would pay big $$ for a streamer then process the hell out of the stream. I thought one paid big bucks for a streamer because the digital output was somehow better than you can get from "lesser" streamers?  Seems counterproductive to pay for an expensive streamer then run the output through several more boxes before the signal gets to your DAC. 

 

Are you saying that the Aurender feeding HQP this way sounds better than Roon or some other program feeding HQP with the same settings? Again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just don't understand the purpose of the exercise other than to say you got it to work. .. which is fine

 

I understand it's "not for everybody, I just don't see why anybody who wanted HQP would go to such lengths and $$  when there are a multitude of one box solutions..... of course other than just for the fun of doing it

 

thanks for pushing the envelope though

Think about it this way, people have spent $20,000 for a high end server and it has full support by the manufacturer. They love the server. Adding another tool in the toolbox by enabling DSP this way is now an option. They don’t have to sell the server at substantial loss and they can stick with what they like. 
 

This article is also a proof of concept article. This is a start, to get the ball rolling on using DSP with components that “don’t” support it and without getting rid one one’s components. 

[Kelly]

And for my next trick, I will show you how to modify a Ferrari for off-roading!  
 

just kidding, good job getting it to work. I don’t think I would have figured it out.

[agladstone]

Wow!! This is all probably slightly over my head / technical capabilities, but within reach of learning. 
As a devout Aurrender customer/ fan, it’s at least exciting to see what can be possible if one is willing to acquire all the necessary additional gear and then also roll up the sleeves and self educate to get it all to work. 
For the layman such as myself,,, is it worth all the effort and investment?? 
My curiosity is would someone similar to myself be better off going outside of Aurrender (or other similar brands) to achieve DSP, Convolution, and HQPLAYER vs. staying with our beloved brands and Implementing all of the aforementioned? 
The reason I chose Aurender over a Rendu/SoTM/ Roon/ HQPlayer type of solution in the first place was due to its high level of performance coupled with essentially plug and play simplicity. 

[R1200CL]

Quote

Ideally, a component would exist that receives audio via USB, AES, S/PDIF, etc... runs DSP, and outputs that to a DAC via USB, AES, S/PDIF etc... The component would support 65,000+ tap convolution filters and upsampling via HQPlayer. Currently this component is only a dream.

Maybe this topic deserves its own tread. Anyway I’m trying to understand. 

@The Computer Audiophile

Is Ethernet a possible input in such a device?

 

What does The Sonictransporter lack in order to be such a device? 

It has Roon, where you add the room correction filters. It has optional HQplayer embedded built in.

Yes it lacks AES/SPDIF, but apart from that, isn’t it pretty close to your dream ? 

 

[R1200CL]

The one significant downside of Ravenna (and presumably the other AES67 protocols) from a consumer perspective is that you need a managed switch (or switches) to prevent flooding of your home network with multicast traffic. That’s beyond most people.  

 

To fully extract the benefits of AES67/DANTE/RAVENNA, you need a well-engineered ethernet network, and controlled computing environments on the sending/receiving side.

The use of DiffServ (DSCP) is highly recommended as it is supported by most managed switches and requires only very moderate administrative interaction as most switches already come with a pre-configured setup for DSCP support.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna_(networking)

 

From here:
“Professional audio applications demand tight synchronisation between all devices and audio streams. While playback synchronisation in most applications requires sample accuracy, it has been the goal for RAVENNA to optionally provide superior performance by providing phase-accurate synchronisation of media clocks according to AES-11; this would render the separate distribution of a reference word clock throughout the facility or venue obsolete. In RAVENNA, synchronisation across all nodes is achieved through IEEE1588-2008 (also referred to as Precision Time Protocol or PTPv2), another standard protocol which can be operated on IP. PTPv2 provides means for synchronising local clocks to a precision in the lower nanoseconds range with reference to a related master clock – provided that all participating switches natively support PTPv2. But even without native PTP support, the achievable precision – while varying depending on size and bandwidth utilisation of the network – will be more than sufficient to reach sample accurate synchronisation across all nodes. Sample-accurate synchronisation can even be reached across WAN connections, when local master clocks are synchronised to GPS as a common time domain reference.”

So can this be achieved by technology from the white rabbit project, and then avoiding using Revanna ?

That HW you’re using as a PTP Master clock is quite expensive, but I have no idea if other HW can be used to achieve the same ? Did you investigate ?

 

The Revenna is limited to 384kHz. Is this an issue ?

 

All RAVENNA devices must have the ability to connect using a ‘generic’ profile, which has been defined as follows:

• Channels – 1..8
• Bit depth (word length) – 16 and 24
• Sample frequency – 48kHz
• Frames per packet – 64 (1.33 ms packet time)

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Is Ethernet a possible input in such a device?

Anything is possible, but which protocol are you going to use to send and receive audio? Ravenna?

 

 

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

What does The Sonictransporter lack in order to be such a device? 

It has Roon, where you add the room correction filters. It has optional HQplayer embedded built in.

Yes it lacks AES/SPDIF, but apart from that, isn’t it pretty close to your dream ? 

 

It lacks the ability to input audio. 
 

Tons of people are over or never got into Roon. As I said in the article, using Roon for this isn’t an option.