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Do I need clean USB power when using DAC with its own power supply?


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To get back to the topic of USB, noise, and measurements... 

I would be curious to know:

 

- whether people who buy these new "budget" DACs purely based on specs and measurements end up keeping them very long ? Looking at ASR, it seems that forum members are in a permanent state of excitement about the newest models - while the previous models measured just as well or the differences were supposed to be inaudible!

 

- are these DACs really used with a direct connection to a noisy PC ? You find a lot of people raving about these DACs that end up spending a lot of time tweaking them, spend just as much money (or even more) on source equipment, external clocks, etc...

 

I have the impression, from reading various forums, that the ideas preached by the new audio gurus at ASR and other such sites are not in fact really put in practice by their followers.

 

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On the other hand, Jo Schmo looking to invest a little money into a home stereo system is probably not going to be purchasing a DAC these days, but will prefer the convenience of an "all in one" system with active speakers or an integrated amp with Bluetooth or wifi connectivity. If he were to read Archimago's blog or ASR's website he'd probably think the authors are just as insane as if he were to read the "novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" thread (and most others on AS) 😅

 

The so-called "non-audiophiles" who are interested in DACs and spend their days on ASR (for example) are probably no different than the "audiophiles" they criticize. 

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4 hours ago, hopkins said:

To get back to the topic of USB, noise, and measurements... 

I would be curious to know:

 

- whether people who buy these new "budget" DACs purely based on specs and measurements end up keeping them very long ? Looking at ASR, it seems that forum members are in a permanent state of excitement about the newest models - while the previous models measured just as well or the differences were supposed to be inaudible!

 

 

There is a large grouping of audiophiles who are into the excitement of constantly upgrading their gear - that's a pleasure in its own right, and if they have the means to indulge... why not? 😉

 

As most in the audio world know, conventional measuring is quite hopeless at assessing whether an audio chain is accurate; and is almost never used for evolving a setup to be accurate ... the fact that every rig sounds so different, often dramatically, from the next one is the obvious giveaway that accuracy is still a far away dream ...

 

Noise is a major part of the reason why - with quite obvious, highly audible consequences ... no work is being done to work out a strategy for measuring the impact of noise on an overall, assembled system - and the hopeless state of the industry, with 'snake oil' everywhere, tells the story.

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8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

There is a large grouping of audiophiles who are into the excitement of constantly upgrading their gear - that's a pleasure in its own right, and if they have the means to indulge... why not? 😉

 

As most in the audio world know, conventional measuring is quite hopeless at assessing whether an audio chain is accurate; and is almost never used for evolving a setup to be accurate ... the fact that every rig sounds so different, often dramatically, from the next one is the obvious giveaway that accuracy is still a far away dream ...

 

Noise is a major part of the reason why - with quite obvious, highly audible consequences ... no work is being done to work out a strategy for measuring the impact of noise on an overall, assembled system - and the hopeless state of the industry, with 'snake oil' everywhere, tells the story.

I Rest My Case

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  • 2 months later...

I would like to share my experience with this also, I own RME DAC and the sound was too harsh, I decided to change to a cleaner power sourcing.

 

Changed to linear power supply, and after months of using it the only thing i could say is OH MY GOD.

 

It was built in external box, my friend helped me into finish it I am not electronic expert 9_9

 

hope this give better image for others

 

image.thumb.png.29ad9b3a4b72ac2c009091865973e906.png

 

 

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On 7/20/2021 at 1:35 AM, hopkins said:

I understand (from previous comments here) that Salvatore is a controversial figure, but I do find his articles interesting. Here is another one on "sound floor":

 

http://www.high-endaudio.com/rec.html#Noise

 

The concluding paragraphs are interesting, as he discusses his efforts to convert "hard-core audio sceptics". 

 

... when these objectivists finally admitted hearing the extra information (provided usually by tube electronics), they always went on to say that it was "much too subtle" to be concerned about, and usually further stated that they "couldn't understand how anyone could make such a 'big deal' about almost nothing". These events were rare and tiny "victories" for me, though still quite satisfying. This was because I always had the same last words ready for the objectivist: "It's the love and pursuit of these same audio 'subtleties' that defines an audiophile."

 

Perhaps some of us are more or less sensitive to particular aspects of sound reproduction, whatever the reason may be? (I'm not saying "audiophiles" have special hearing abilities). What is important to one person may be irrelevant to another.

 

Are these "subtleties" essential? When I'm listening to music on my phone with my 20$ Porta Pro headphones I cannot hear them, but I still enjoy what I'm listening to! But sometimes I tell myself: I can't wait to listen to this track on my speakers 🙂

 

We also have to acknowledge that our hearing is still an ongoing topic in scientific research. What makes it so sensitive (probably more so than audition tests may reveal)? Here's one interesting read:

https://news.mit.edu/2007/hearing-1010

 

On 7/20/2021 at 9:39 AM, audiobomber said:

Objectivist websites and bloggers say that digital noise and jitter don't exist, or don't matter. Audiophile manufacturers say they do matter, and design accordingly. I have not found any correlation between what Objectivists say, and my personal experience. I have found that what certain designers (e.g. John Westlake, Ed Meitner, George Klissarov, etc.) say, is valid in my listening experience. 

Blind testing is an artificial construct, and short-term testing leads to error. Reality is listening in my room, to my system, with my music, for an extended period of time. If the equipment has a failing, I will notice eventually, and once I do, it will nag me until I fix it with a tweak oIr replace it.

 


The problem is, what Archi and Amir say I can't hear, I say I can hear. I have faith in my extended listening method ahead of any third party, manufacturer, blogger, reviewer or audiophile.

 

 

There are plenty of people on ASR who believe a $200 Topping is as good as a $2000 Mytek because of Amir's bullshit. I replaced the D50S with a Modi 3 that lists for half the price and got better sound. None of the measurements answer either of these two situations, so what good are they to me? The answer is... not much. Yet I do read them, just as I read the manufacturer's website and every review I can find, pro and amateur when researching gear.

 

 

My goal is to enjoy music. Anything that adds to my enjoyment is good. I've heard plenty of gear that would be reviled by objectivists, yet sounded awesome. Here's a recent example where I chose musicality over accuracy: 


A friend loaned me a pair of PMC DB1 Gold mini-monitors ($2500 in Canada). I tried them in three of my systems. They were not good enough to last more than a few minutes in my main or desktop systems due to a closed-in top end and obvious dynamic compression.

 

I thought they might replace the $500 Raw-1F speakers in my small system. Both are small standmounts, 8-ohms, the RAW-1F slightly more sensitive. The main difference, other than 5X price, is that the PCM is a two-way, whereas the Raw uses a single full-range driver. Everyone knows that a single driver entails technical compromise, fans believe there are advantages. At first I didn't notice much to sway me one way or the other; the PMC was more detailed, the Raw was livelier. My wife preferred the Raw immediately. After a week, I was desperate to change back. I was missing the life and dynamics of the Raw. The PMC made music less engaging, less interesting which to me is the cardinal sin in audio.  

 

Fascinating discussions...

 

Whether it's Salvatore's claims about the "sound floor", or claims of whether "digital noise" or "jitter" exists, it's hard to discuss these things when:

 

1. There are typically no specifics given to discuss or investigate a lot of times. We have to always be careful about gross generalizations. What subtle "sound floor", or what "almost nothing" difference is Salvatore talking about? What device with what "jitter" are we concerned about? What "digital noise" are we talking about that could be audible?

 

I can speak for myself if I hear a difference, and I can try my best to express why I think it does/doesn't matter (like say the jitter demo, or why I believe "Bits Are Bits"), but I leave it to each person to explore and agree or disagree. Who knows @audiobomber, maybe you're right and can hear something I can't hear. No problem with you having "faith" in your own ears - as a hobby, I don't expect you to have anything else but what you experience as pleasurable or not.

 

Alas, I don't really have much faith in the testimony of audio writers these days given the years of questionable claims. Years of magazine-reading that have led me nowhere in terms of actual knowledge or understanding. If anything, magazines made me neurotic about whether my wires were good enough or whether little differences we "jitter" or not for example! (A little like fashion magazines causing young folks to struggle with body image?) Heck, if I had faith in audio writers, maybe I would never bother to investigate mQa, right? Would we all be better for it to just accept these claims at face value? I don't think so!

 

Instead of testimony, I challenge folks to do a little more work and demonstrate the differences heard. At least be very specific about what the belief is so things can be investigated. We are dealing with engineered products, not "creations of God", so let's take steps to examine and investigate. There's nothing miraculous here, just electronics and physics.

 

To me, purely subjective folks who claim this or that ("better dynamics!", "better frequency extension!", "huge soundstage!"), but either will not or cannot take the next step and try to show the effect really do not propel the hobby forward in any meaningful way. All these years of "high end cables" for example - has any of this resulted in any progress? If there is no forward trajectory, then how is there actual knowledge gained that we can build on as opposed to a never-ending cycle of consumerism?

 

2. How do we know that it's even those putative factors that have any relation to why we enjoy something? How do we know differences have anything to do with jitter for example unless we test it?

 

Over the years with some of the online blind tests, I have seen individuals give responses that they're sure of because they could "clearly" hear it.

 

This was brought home to me with the first MP3 vs. lossless blind test back in 2013 when a guy was insistent that he "knew" which tracks were MP3 because he "knew" the difference was because of lossless distortion! Well, he was wrong when I unblinded the results and he was never heard from again. This is why I check, and double check. When I find an anomaly (like this past week showing that DSD playback on the Topping D90SE was not as good as AKM DACs), I make sure I try to listen for myself. Sometimes I might have a subtle impression that something's not right, other times, if a signal is down at -110dB or something like that, I can be pretty sure it's not a problem in my system.

 

This is part of the fun. To be able to run measurements gives me another avenue to explore what is or is not important. When I find an anomaly that "golden ears" should have noticed (for example, did anyone notice the 24/48 bug in JPLAY?), this provided another avenue to appreciate the limits of human hearing.

 

3. Objective and subjective analysis are both essential. One tells me what "is", the other tells me what is "good" (for me) as an audiophile. I would rather share more of the objective stuff because that applies to all of us. I'm of course happy to share my personal subjective impressions as well (this week let's talk about some music and the Topping D90SE for example), but I know what I feel, or perceive, is not as important nor applicable to everyone so I place subjective sharing lower in priority.

 

I know that technical perfection is not always better BTW. Sometimes a bit more harmonics, a slightly higher noise floor, a bit of roll-off sounds great. I appreciate that vinyl has its charms, tube amps can bloom, and vintage speakers allow for a type of nostalgia modern "accurate" speakers cannot do.

 

Inherent in this I believe is a sense of humility in being human and the frailties of being this biological creature; on this Earth to learn about the nuances but bold enough to call out BS as well.

 

Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile.

Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism.

:nomqa: R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

 

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