Article: Apple Music's Lossless and Hi-Res Mess

[new_media]

3 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I also agree. I simply don't understand why that's not an option when it is so easy with other apps to send system sounds through, for example, my monitor speakers, and use the USB DAC specifically for one app.

 

It should be fairly straightforward to implement. When I use Roon in exclusive mode, music goes to the DAC and all other audio goes to my Mac's built in speakers. As soon as Roon playback stops, system sounds are routed through the DAC again.

[AudioDoctor]

2 minutes ago, new_media said:

 

It should be fairly straightforward to implement. When I use Roon in exclusive mode, music goes to the DAC and all other audio goes to my Mac's built in speakers. As soon as Roon playback stops, system sounds are routed through the DAC again.

 

I am positive Apple can, its that they don't want to.

[vortecjr]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I think people running tests should capture at a minimum 30 seconds of the track. In my testing, I found the bit perfection to be hit and miss throughout each track. This makes the service Apple Music not lossless if it can't deliver an entire track bit perfect. 

On your suggestion...I tried testing full length tracks and was not able to make them align bit perfect.  

[wklie]

I did inspect the MQA light for the whole duration for a few tracks in Fairytales MQA CD AirPlay1 test, but of course this is a much weaker test than binary file diff.

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, wklie said:

I did inspect the MQA light for the whole duration for a few tracks in Fairytales MQA CD AirPlay1 test, but of course this is a much weaker test than binary file diff.

Would be interesting to start turning the digital volume in Apple Music app down as it plays. This cuts bits of course and should remove any mQa light immediately. 

[Rsbrsvp]

In direct comparison of Apple Lossless to Amazon HD with it's semi exclusive mode, Amazon HD sounds noticeably better IMHO.

 

The library is similar in terms of song and album availability.

 

I won't leave Amazon until Apple gets that Exclusive Mode.....

 

Qobuz is the sonically the best to my ears- but the catalogue is not the type of music I listen to... so it is worthless to me.

[Rsbrsvp]

Also- apple lossless is not available on a PC and my fanless pc is much quieter than my mac mini.  Amazon works with my fanless optimized PC.

 

Apple needs a year to mature before considering.  

[wklie]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Would be interesting to start turning the digital volume in Apple Music app down as it plays. This cuts bits of course and should remove any mQa light immediately. 

 

Tested with expected results.

 

Test setup: iPadOS 14.6 Apple Music Fairytales MQA CD AirPlay1 to Lumin USB output to a third party Full decoder MQA DAC.

 

At max volume, MQA indication is shown on the DAC front panel.

Decrease the volume, MQA indication is lost within 1 second.

Increase the volume back to max, MQA indication is regained within 4 seconds.

This process is repeated many times for the first three tracks.

 

Since Lumin is used as the AirPlay1 receiver, iPadOS sends the desired volume metadata to Lumin, which then applies Leedh Processing Volume (if not at max volume) to digitally change the bits, thereby destroying MQA integrity.

[Marco Klobas]

To complete my previous test (the second one – recording through routing), a simple diff command between the trimmed original track and the trimmed registered track shows 0 differences.

[Marco Klobas]

I repeated my first test (the one with AirPlay 1 to Shairport Sync), this time using AirServer. It's a software AirPlay 1 receiver (running on Mac in my case).

 

The result is the same: reversing the polarity of the recorded track is muting completely the original track. My tests so far always included complete tracks, from the start to the end.

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, Marco Klobas said:

I repeated my first test (the one with AirPlay 1 to Shairport Sync), this time using AirServer. It's a software AirPlay 1 receiver (running on Mac in my case).

 

The result is the same: reversing the polarity of the recorded track is muting completely the original track. My tests so far always included complete tracks, from the start to the end.

The differences i’m getting are very small and likely from the capture setup. I’m going to test Shairport-sync with stdout in the next couple days. This will simplify things and I should be able to reproduce your results. 

 

I also have a change to the Shairport-sync configuration that I want to try on Chris’s unit to see if it helps with the HDCD stream.

[Dr Tone]

8 hours ago, Rsbrsvp said:

Also- apple lossless is not available on a PC and my fanless pc is much quieter than my mac mini.  Amazon works with my fanless optimized PC.

 

Apple needs a year to mature before considering.  

Apple music has a web player.  FWIW

[Rsbrsvp]

I have no idea how to get lossless music in web player

[MikeyFresh]

35 minutes ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I have no idea how to get lossless music in web player

In the U.S. it's music.apple.com, but I don't know if that is available in other regions or not.

[Daren F]

1 hour ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I have no idea how to get lossless music in web player

 

You can't get lossless anyway with Windows. Exclusive mode only mutes other system sounds and doesn't provide bit perfect exclusive access to the sound device. Signal is still being resampled by the Windows mixer. Only way to get Amazon Music HD bit perfect lossless is with a BluOS device.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, I'm getting some interesting results using AirPlay. I'll probably update the article this week. 

[Rsbrsvp]

1 hour ago, Daren F said:

 

You can't get lossless anyway with Windows. Exclusive mode only mutes other system sounds and doesn't provide bit perfect exclusive access to the sound device. Signal is still being resampled by the Windows mixer. Only way to get Amazon Music HD bit perfect lossless is with a BluOS device.

I am aware than amazon exclusive does not change sample rate- but whatever it does- it sounds better than when not activated.

 

I do not understand what people mean when they say one is not getting lossless just because the mixer is not changing the sample rate automatically.  Yes, perhaps he music is not bit perfect, but the file is not missing information as lossy music (MP3, AAC etc.) is.  To me that it Lossless; non-bit perfect lossless, perhaps modified lossless, but lossless. All the information is there- and that is lossless.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I am aware than amazon exclusive does not change sample rate- but whatever it does- it sounds better than when not activated.

 

I do not understand what people mean when they say one is not getting lossless just because the mixer is not changing the sample rate automatically.  Yes, perhaps he music is not bit perfect, but the file is not missing information as lossy music (MP3, AAC etc.) is.  To me that it Lossless; non-bit perfect lossless, perhaps modified lossless, but lossless. All the information is there- and that is lossless.

 

 

In my testing, even if the sample rate / bit depth are set perfectly, the output isn't bit perfect. There is DSP taking place somewhere. If it's not possible to play bit perfect audio, it isn't lossless. 

[Rsbrsvp]

 

 

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

In my testing, even if the sample rate / bit depth are set perfectly, the output isn't bit perfect. There is DSP taking place somewhere. If it's not possible to play bit perfect audio, it isn't lossless. 

I accept that that is your definition of lossless.  But my definition- perhaps not the accepted definition is that information has not been removed from the file as it is with MP3 and AAC.  Bit perfect is another issue.  I would like amazon to be bit perfect, and perhaps it is not; but no information has been removed from the file, rather it is modified by the mixer and not bit perfect.

 

Look, anyone with apple music and amazon music who plays a AAC 256 file on apple and the same file on Amazon in FLAC- even without exclusive mode will hear that the FLAC is better- as it is not cutting any information.  Bit perfect would be anothe improvement, but just because amazon is not playing bit perfect does not mean that a FLAC (lossless) file has no advantage over a AAC or MP3 file.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong....

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Rsbrsvp said:

 

 

I accept that that is your definition of lossless.  But my definition- perhaps not the accepted definition is that information has not been removed from the file as it is with MP3 and AAC.  Bit perfect is another issue.  I would like amazon to be bit perfect, and perhaps it is not; but no information has been removed from the file, rather it is modified by the mixer and not bit perfect.

 

Look, anyone with apple music and amazon music who plays a AAC 256 file on apple and the same file on Amazon in FLAC- even without exclusive mode will hear that the FLAC is better- as it is not cutting any information.  Bit perfect would be anothe improvement, but just because amazon is not playing bit perfect does not mean that a FLAC (lossless) file has no advantage over a AAC or MP3 file.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong....

 

If we can't get bit perfect audio, how can you verify it's lossless?

[Rsbrsvp]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

If we can't get bit perfect audio, how can you verify it's lossless?

Excellent question that I have no idea how to answer.   However at least, based on this last comment it seems that you agree that in theory, lossless and bit perfect are not the same thing.  A file can be lossless, but modified by the mixer and therefore not bit perfect.  FLAC files are not supposed to have any information missing.  I assume amazon is not lying that their FLAC files are FLAC files.

[Rsbrsvp]

By the way, I want Amazon and apple to all be bit perfect.  I want them all to have true exclusive mode.  I want them all to share their API with Audrivana.

 

I just don't believe that because amazon and apple are not bit perfect that their lossless music is still not better than lossy music.  My ears tell me it is better.

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, Rsbrsvp said:

Excellent question that I have no idea how to answer.   However at least, based on this last comment it seems that you agree that in theory, lossless and bit perfect are not the same thing.  A file can be lossless, but modified by the mixer and therefore not bit perfect.  FLAC files are not supposed to have any information missing.  I assume amazon is not lying that their FLAC files are FLAC files.

 

Agree totally. Bit perfect and lossless are two different things. I say a service isn't lossless when it doesn't provide a way to stream it bit perfect. If there is DSP taking place somewhere, and I have no idea where that is, I can't guarantee it's lossless. 

 

I will have an update to this with respect to Apple this week. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Rsbrsvp said:

By the way, I want Amazon and apple to all be bit perfect.  I want them all to have true exclusive mlde.  I want them all to share their API with Audrivana.

 

I just don't believe that because amazon and apple are not bit perfect that their lossless music is still not better than lossy music.  My ears tell me it is better.

 

I'm with you on this as well. In my experience, the non-bit perfect Amazon is better than the lossy MP3 Amazon. 

[Rsbrsvp]

Thanks.  I appreciate these clarifications because I want to participate in these forums using the proper definitions...

 

As I said earlier, I guess that Spotify, apple, amazon lossless free market realities will force one or more of these services to get their bit perfect, exclusive mode acts together soon.  I hope within a year- but just guessing...

[Rsbrsvp]

By the way, my next prediction is that Tidal and Qobuz will be out of business within a few short years, especially if the big three do lossless correctly.