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12 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Not just seeing 'which measures better', but actually, PROPERLY looking into how things might be DIFFERENT.

First off, I watched both MQA videos and want to commend you and say well done.

 

As for donating, I’m not so much cheap, as just very picky about where I spend money. But I’m very interested in your plans wrt the above quote. Please elaborate here or pm... I might like to $how my intere$t in a practical way...

 

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Thanks for the thorough and enthusiastic response. I think I’m in.... going to watch a couple more of your videos, figure out what Discord benefits are, and discuss with the Finance Minister (it’s my money, but she decides) before deciding what level.

 

Sorry for being a dick, but I have to ask: do you know how to use the AP?

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18 minutes ago, SoundAndMotion said:

Thanks for the thorough and enthusiastic response. I think I’m in.... going to watch a couple more of your videos, figure out what Discord benefits are, and discuss with the Finance Minister (it’s my money, but she decides) before deciding what level.

 

Sorry for being a dick, but I have to ask: do you know how to use the AP?

Thank you very much!
Of course if I can answer any questions then do let me know.
In terms of videos with objective content, I'd recommend taking a peek at the DDC video, active vs passive preamps, and Bifrost 2 review.

As to the AP. I know how to use it yes, and also actually had a two hour call with a rep from audio precision walking through some of the more advanced features of the software.
I'd be lying if I said I knew EVERYTHING about it, but that's cause quite frankly the level of flexibility that device and software has is....beyond insane. Hence the nearly 800 page manual. I doubt there are many people who actually know how to use all of what the 555 offers.

But I do know how to use the AP software properly and how to correctly operate, prepare and discuss the measurements as well as identifying potential issues in tests and what may be causing them etc.

(Also have done plenty of measurements of stuff on the past though of course limited in performance by the hardware)

https://youtube.com/goldensound

Roon -> HQPlayer -> SMS200 Ultra/SPS500 -> Holo Audio May (Wildism Edition) -> Holo Audio Serene (Wildism Edition) -> Benchmark AHB2 -> Hifiman Susvara

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3 hours ago, GoldenOne said:


And even things such as cables. Previous testing I did showed that there was a repeatable, measurable difference between a generic 1m BNC cable and an Audioquest Carbon 1m BNC cable, even though the source device and DAC were unchanged.
I'd love to explore stuff like this further.

 

This is where the real movement in properly evaluating the behaviour of audio systems will come from - there is an audible change; therefore, there will be something to measure. The problem then becomes the determined blindness by many who do have access to the equipment, to not see anything meaningful in the measurements.

 

3 hours ago, GoldenOne said:



I think the idea would be to try to be as thorough as possible, testing stuff every which way, and seeing what changes performance.
And then looking at what the differences in measurements between products X and Y are and trying to get an implication of what measurements might be impacting the audible differences even though they are measuring to a degree that many would considder "transparent".

And of course, any theories or ideas that viewers might have. I thought actually it might be fun to do a video every month or so where I just quickfire test stuff from suggestions.
"Does dac X behave differently when upside down", "does the ifi ipurifier change anything on dac X", "how does a headphone impedance adapter for speaker amps change FR" etc.

So much interesting stuff that could be looked into. 

 

Fabulous thinking ... I'm looking forward to what you will come up with ... 👍👍👍.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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9 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Exactly! It's incredibly frustrating when a discussion can't be had because it goes something along these lines:

 

A: I think these two products sound different

B: impossible they both have 120dB sinad. 

A: I did an assisted double blind test and was able to correctly determine between them 

B: well the test must be wrong then. 

 

I just don't get it. Surely if there is a difference itd be in everyone's interest to explore what might be causing it? It seems that far too many people are determined not to find any reason that they could be different as you said. 

 

Personally I'd quite like to find out why these differences are present, and I'm sure others would too! 

 

Yes - long-awaited fresh air blowing through an opened window.

 

There is, indeed, a yawning twilight zone in which SQ effects, reported by spontaneous consent around this Forum and elsewhere, *could* be attributable to expectation bias and other "brain phenomena", but which *may equally* be attributable to effects not yet unveiled in the objective realm.

 

Absence of evidence for something is not proof that the same thing does not exist. This kind of false logic is familiar to most of us. The researcher may have been turning over the wrong stones/misreading the theoretical map/insufficiently imaginative to date/short of resources etc. We may have condescended and laughed at the struggle  - but ridicule is no argument at all.

 

I had hoped that "top down" listening tests might close the gap. But such listening tests would demand reasonable numbers of impartial listeners preferably in a single geographical location ("lab"). Do-able. But probably a vain hope.

 

Armed with your clear technical credentials, your reasonable and human approach, your exceptional ability to articulate a position - and now an APx555 possibly - well consider me a moral subscriber. All power to your Audio Precision Analyzer elbow!

My system is ethernet-based (RedNet/Dante) but strictly offline. I don't stream music from the internet.

System here

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7 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

Erm, you don't need that analyser to show differences. You need an other mindset than "but you won't be able to hear this" (under -120dB etc. etc. etc.).

 

Just saying : my mindset has been all right as long as I work on this stuff. I have that analyser as well; We create cables and DACs and what not, so I know what to expect. GoldenOne, by the time you need some pointers, just let me know. As long as you (or Chris) don't think I'm raining on your parade, it is fine.

 

I would have many first pointers, and I chose this one for today:

 

You won't get far without the experience of listening. Hence, you could see all kinds of spuria in contrary directions. It could take 10 years of reasoning out in writing to qualify them. For example, I wrote a few pages of essay on the subject of how the ultra lowest jitter clock (as in less than 1fs) sounded by far the worse (Mani may recall it). Later I proved with my own normal NOS1 ((rated at a theoretical 200fs) that tapping on the floor already implied jitter-changes (rated at a theoreticsl 200fs). I think I have screenshots of that. Again later I visited a university and observed a whatever it was low jitter requiring tiny device (I think it was telescope lense), assembled in a 5 meter wide and 7 meter high shock-absorber assembly, weighing a couple of tons. The jitter to achieve in there was higher than what I tried out with that ultra low jitter clock. ... I returned that clock.

 

So you see, like with the easy to understand turn table, DACs already can't be measured in a static environment. It requires music to play in order to catch the hammering of the sound waves via the floor and cabinet on to the oscillator(s). Measure without that and you'd having nothing of value. For Mani ... the NOS1 floating on water ... (many many pages of fun to begin with).

Leave out these more or less prerequisites and you'd measure the wrong thing.

 

Not-so-much-doable.

But from me too, the best of luck !

And most certainly ready to help, because the idea most certainly is fresh.

An analyzer isn't strictly necessary, but most certainly of immense help.
Though in this situation it's actually not entirely the hardware which would be the benefit. But the software. To be honest an ADI-2 Pro and 1khz notch gets you all the performance you could ever need for most 'standard' measurements.

But its the flexibility and configurability of the AP hardware/software package that makes them so immensely powerful and the reason why they're the industry standard even with many much much cheaper options available.

I appreciate the offer for help, I'm sure i'll be giving you a shout in future! Thank you!

https://youtube.com/goldensound

Roon -> HQPlayer -> SMS200 Ultra/SPS500 -> Holo Audio May (Wildism Edition) -> Holo Audio Serene (Wildism Edition) -> Benchmark AHB2 -> Hifiman Susvara

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@GoldenOne I applaud your efforts to provide objective measurements and try to provide more in-depth analysis. I would be happy to offer advice/insight, so I’ll start with this:

As unpopular as this may be, I’d really recommend looking to the efforts John Atkinson has provided over the years - he’s truly done exceptional work, trying to keep measurements consistent and I believe him to be a thoroughly decent man. 
 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot 

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Just now, idiot_savant said:

@GoldenOne I applaud your efforts to provide objective measurements and try to provide more in-depth analysis. I would be happy to offer advice/insight, so I’ll start with this:

As unpopular as this may be, I’d really recommend looking to the efforts John Atkinson has provided over the years - he’s truly done exceptional work, trying to keep measurements consistent and I believe him to be a thoroughly decent man. 
 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot 

I couldn't agree more.
I disagree with John on MQA but the work he's done over the years is exceptional and he's provided immense insight both into the objective performance of various products as well as the reasoning for and explanations of his own and other testing methodology and the impacts of what is being shown.

His work is a hugely valuable resource.

https://youtube.com/goldensound

Roon -> HQPlayer -> SMS200 Ultra/SPS500 -> Holo Audio May (Wildism Edition) -> Holo Audio Serene (Wildism Edition) -> Benchmark AHB2 -> Hifiman Susvara

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7 hours ago, idiot_savant said:

@GoldenOne I applaud your efforts to provide objective measurements and try to provide more in-depth analysis. I would be happy to offer advice/insight, so I’ll start with this:

As unpopular as this may be, I’d really recommend looking to the efforts John Atkinson has provided over the years - he’s truly done exceptional work, trying to keep measurements consistent and I believe him to be a thoroughly decent man. 
 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot 

In terms of a large number of consistent measurements, it is also worth looking at the work of Paul Miller.  (Hifi News / AVTech Miller Audio Research)

 

Interestingly, he started out as a chemist. 

(and he worked out that MQA was not all it was claimed to be)

Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, Paul Hynes SR4 (x2), Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection.

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On 5/28/2021 at 7:17 AM, Confused said:

In terms of a large number of consistent measurements, it is also worth looking at the work of Paul Miller.  (Hifi News / AVTech Miller Audio Research)

 

Interestingly, he started out as a chemist. 

(and he worked out that MQA was not all it was claimed to be)

Yep paul miller certainly has some excellent stuff. Though I do wish the measurement suite was a little more thorough.

Which actually I suppose is a good question, what are some measurements that people wish were taken of more products?

https://youtube.com/goldensound

Roon -> HQPlayer -> SMS200 Ultra/SPS500 -> Holo Audio May (Wildism Edition) -> Holo Audio Serene (Wildism Edition) -> Benchmark AHB2 -> Hifiman Susvara

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Well, I for one love measurements 😁

 

One of the things the Miller measurements have over the Stereophile ones are the sweeps, but one of the things Stereophile have over the Miller ones is the single - shot FFT being better. You’ve said you’re not an EE, and that’s fine, but sometimes measurements need some context/analysis/deeper dives, so I’d recommend reaching out to some of the more knowledgeable people on here - we already have ASR…

 

Again, I implore you to keep standardised conditions…

 

something to bear in mind is that there *may* be a bit of shenanigans going on for products dynamically optimising themselves for the AP test suite, feel free to ping me if you want a bit of devious thinking here

 

 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot 

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I’ve reread this, and sound like a right idiot…

 

I’m trying to applaud your efforts yet point out a bit of subtlety could be how you differentiate yourself from other measurement websites - it’s easy ( but not cheap! ) to just buy an AP and run the test suite…

 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot 

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4 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Which actually I suppose is a good question, what are some measurements that people wish were taken of more products?

 

Measuring sensitivity to common-mode noise would be at the top of the pile for me. Shouldn't be too difficult to measure but probably you'd need an external wideband power amplifier (not just an audio power amp) to get sufficient signal. AP's generator last time I used one went up to 200kHz - but that was decades ago - have they increased that top limit on their newer models?

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