Article: Apple Music Lossless, High Resolution, and Dolby Atmos Announced

[wklie]

I look forward to @The Computer Audiophile bit perfect test of Apple Music Lossless from Mac to USB DAC, iPad (via Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter) to USB DAC, and AirPlay from Mac, and AirPlay from iPad. 🙂

[BrownMagic]

@wklie what is Lumin's view on Apple music? Is it something you see your products working with?

[wklie]

I can only tell users to use AirPlay for Apple Music - at this time I am not aware of another way of supporting Apple Music on our products.

 

We are full speed ahead on adding support for Spotify HiFi though.

[Rexp]

29 minutes ago, wklie said:

I can only tell users to use AirPlay for Apple Music - at this time I am not aware of another way of supporting Apple Music on our products.

 

We are full speed ahead on adding support for Spotify HiFi though.

Maybe they'll use a new bluetooth codec? 

[BrownMagic]

1 hour ago, wklie said:

We are full speed ahead on adding support for Spotify HiFi though.

This is good news. Based on Spotify announcement, we can continue to use Spotify connect to stream hires to devices like lumin which support Spotify connect. Is that right? 

[ChipotleCoyote]

29 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Maybe they'll use a new bluetooth codec? 

 

They will not. :) Apple confirmed to The Verge that lossless audio is not supported on any model of AirPods, which use AAC over Bluetooth; if they're not bringing it to their own Bluetooth hardware, they're definitely not bringing it to anyone else's. (To be fair, I don't think they could bring it to anyone else's, since I don't think there are any lossless Bluetooth codecs, period; even if Apple came up with one, both ends would need it.) According to MacRumors, not even the (no longer made) HomePod or the (still made) HomePod mini will work with Apple's lossless audio, although MacRumors is living up to their name and quoting "unnamed sources" on that -- it's documented that AirPlay is at capable of CD-quality lossless ALAC streaming, but reports are fuzzy as to whether it can currently do higher resolution.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I'm less pessimistic than some others about the potential of Apple opening this up -- on their video streaming service, they've taken a "the more the merrier" approach to third-party clients, and there are a few third-party Apple Music clients out there, and even first-party clients for Android and Samsung TVs. But "less pessimistic" isn't the same as "optimistic." I'm pretty sure that personally, the only way I'll get it on my living room system is through my Apple TV hardware. (My A/V receiver has BluOS in it and could almost certainly be upgraded to support Apple Music with proper API support, but -- based on my experience with NAD/Bluesound so far -- I wouldn't be holding my breath for them to do that any time soon, even if Apple not only gives the okay but Tim Cook personally delivers API documentation to them.)

[Rexp]

7 minutes ago, ChipotleCoyote said:

 

They will not. :) Apple confirmed to The Verge that lossless audio is not supported on any model of AirPods, which use AAC over Bluetooth; if they're not bringing it to their own Bluetooth hardware, they're definitely not bringing it to anyone else's. (To be fair, I don't think they could bring it to anyone else's, since I don't think there are any lossless Bluetooth codecs, period; even if Apple came up with one, both ends would need it.) According to MacRumors, not even the (no longer made) HomePod or the (still made) HomePod mini will work with Apple's lossless audio, although MacRumors is living up to their name and quoting "unnamed sources" on that -- it's documented that AirPlay is at capable of CD-quality lossless ALAC streaming, but reports are fuzzy as to whether it can currently do higher resolution.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I'm less pessimistic than some others about the potential of Apple opening this up -- on their video streaming service, they've taken a "the more the merrier" approach to third-party clients, and there are a few third-party Apple Music clients out there, and even first-party clients for Android and Samsung TVs. But "less pessimistic" isn't the same as "optimistic." I'm pretty sure that personally, the only way I'll get it on my living room system is through my Apple TV hardware. (My A/V receiver has BluOS in it and could almost certainly be upgraded to support Apple Music with proper API support, but -- based on my experience with NAD/Bluesound so far -- I wouldn't be holding my breath for them to do that any time soon, even if Apple not only gives the okay but Tim Cook personally delivers API documentation to them.)

Oh well, hopefully someone else will develop it in the future. 

[seeteeyou]

Bluetooth should be a dead end for streaming Hi-Res audio via lossless CODECs, pretty much like Apple Music is a dead end for 3rd party developers

 

https://toolstud.io/video/audiosize.php

Quote

Apple Lossless (ALAC 757 kbps stereo)

 

https://www.silabs.com/documents/login/presentations/tech-talks-evolution-of-bluetooth-5-5-1-5-2.pdf#page=4

Quote

2M PHY will double the throughput up to 1.4Mbps

 

https://www.silabs.com/documents/login/presentations/tech-talks-evolution-of-bluetooth-5-5-1-5-2.pdf#page=5

Quote

Bluetooth 4 uses a single 1M PHY
PHY = 1M
Maximum throughput = 800 kbps

Quote

Bluetooth 5 adds an optional 2M PHY
PHY = 2M
Maximum throughput = 1438 kbps

 

No, Bluetooth cannot deliver hi-res audio
https://darko.audio/2020/11/no-bluetooth-cannot-deliver-hi-res-audio/

 

The ultimate guide to Bluetooth headphones: LDAC isn’t Hi-res
https://www.soundguys.com/ldac-ultimate-bluetooth-guide-20026/

 

Bluetooth codecs 101: Everything you need to know
https://www.androidauthority.com/bluetooth-codecs-997074/

 

---

 

And then they've gotta update AirPlay 2 or something, otherwise we'll have to wait for stuff like AirPlay 2.5 or 3 etc.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marksparrow/2019/10/23/bws-formation-wedge-sounds-awesome-but-needs-some-polish

Quote

Apple’s AirPlay 2 protocol downsamples audio files to 24-bit 44.1 kHz

 

https://www.technologyfocus.net/can-airplay-2-support-hi-res-audio/

Quote

This number is supported by the fact when I stream Amazon Music HD to my Airplay 2 capable speaker, the device capability changes to indeed 24-bit/44.1 kHz.

 

Not promising at all, therefore not an appealing option for audiophiles then.

 

Since they really can't care less about 3rd party developers, we audiophiles could simply stick with Spotify HiFi / TIDAL / Qobuz etc.

[CharlieBros]

I have a Homepod Mini and the sound is phenomenal, it's really strange to me that it will not be able to stream lossless audio tho, because it doesn't use Bluetooth, at least not in the traditional sense, but rather WiFi, that plus having a really powerful processor inside, it should easily be able to at least playback CD quality audio, I'm actually thinking about buying a second one to have them in stereo to be able to enjoy spatial audio / Dolby Atmos, I know is not really audiophile, but spatial audio on the Airpods Pro is gamechanging, it really is incredible what they were able to achieve, makes me sad tho that because of the limitations of bluetooth, we can't enjoy wireless lossless audio, at least not in a real sense.

 

My dad designs amplifiers and has taught us, my brother and I, the wonders of lossless high fidelity audio, but I never really got me to care too much about it, specially since I would need to use a service with a lot smaller catalogue like Tidal or Qobuz (the later one isn't even available in Mexico) compared to Apple Music, but now? Heck, I'm now looking to buy a new DAC (any entry-level recommendations?) and a new pair of headphones (My HyperX Cloud II's may not gonna cut it), this may be only a move to annoy and put pressure on Spotify, Amazon Music, Tidal, Deezer, etc, but I believe this can really work as a stepping stone for a lot of people to get into the HiFi music world

By the way, I have read a ton of info around this, and AFAIK, Apple is NOT going to use MQA but rather it will use ALAC, I mean, the name is "Apple Lossless Audio Codec", Why would Apple, from all companies in the world, decide to license another codec, specially now that it has been shown that MQA is nothing more than snake oil? and also, the HiRes lossless option will be available for no extra charge

Just adding my two cents to the conversation!

[wklie]

45 minutes ago, BrownMagic said:

Based on Spotify announcement, we can continue to use Spotify connect to stream hires to devices like lumin which support Spotify connect. Is that right? 

 

Our current Spotify Connect implementation will work up to 320kbps.  We will provide a firmware upgrade (with the latest SDK) to support Spotify HiFi at lossless CD quality when that becomes available, but I cannot say about other brands.  Hi-Res is not available from Spotify.

[CharlieBros]

By the way, according to reddit, if you have iOS 14.6 RC you can already see the Atmos, Apple Digital Master and Lossless badges on video albums, and when you tap on the Lossless badge it says you can hear it in up to 24 bit 192 KHz

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

Bluetooth should be a dead end for streaming Hi-Res audio via lossless CODECs, pretty much like Apple Music is a dead end for 3rd party developers

 

https://toolstud.io/video/audiosize.php

 

https://www.silabs.com/documents/login/presentations/tech-talks-evolution-of-bluetooth-5-5-1-5-2.pdf#page=4

 

https://www.silabs.com/documents/login/presentations/tech-talks-evolution-of-bluetooth-5-5-1-5-2.pdf#page=5

 

No, Bluetooth cannot deliver hi-res audio
https://darko.audio/2020/11/no-bluetooth-cannot-deliver-hi-res-audio/

 

The ultimate guide to Bluetooth headphones: LDAC isn’t Hi-res
https://www.soundguys.com/ldac-ultimate-bluetooth-guide-20026/

 

Bluetooth codecs 101: Everything you need to know
https://www.androidauthority.com/bluetooth-codecs-997074/

 

---

 

And then they've gotta update AirPlay 2 or something, otherwise we'll have to wait for stuff like AirPlay 2.5 or 3 etc.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marksparrow/2019/10/23/bws-formation-wedge-sounds-awesome-but-needs-some-polish

 

https://www.technologyfocus.net/can-airplay-2-support-hi-res-audio/

 

Not promising at all, therefore not an appealing option for audiophiles then.

 

Since they really can't care less about 3rd party developers, we audiophiles could simply stick with Spotify HiFi / TIDAL / Qobuz etc.

Thanks, what's your definition of hi-res? Above 16/44.1 or 24/44.1

[loop7]

What are predictions for Qobuz and TIDAL pricing moving forward? With Amazon and Apple both pricing lossless/high resolution at previously lossy prices, will Q & T lower pricing? 

 

I realize many of us in this niche are willing to pay more for the integrations these two services offer but it is a curious issue.

[mindnoise]

What's next for Qobuz and Tidal and Roon...

 

My exact concerns.  As a Roon + Tidal user, I'm worried that the whole ecosystem will come tumbling down.  For Roon, Tidal is the only streaming service available in my country.  Music discovery has been great, but I always knew that being tied to a single source streaming service was the weakest link in my Roon subscription.

 

Exciting times! But very worrisome.

Cheers,

Jay

[Jsmith]

11 minutes ago, mindnoise said:

What's next for Qobuz and Tidal and Roon...

 

My exact concerns.  As a Roon + Tidal user, I'm worried that the whole ecosystem will come tumbling down.  For Roon, Tidal is the only streaming service available in my country.  Music discovery has been great, but I always knew that being tied to a single source streaming service was the weakest link in my Roon subscription.

 

Exciting times! But very worrisome.

Cheers,

Jay

I just don't see Apple doing enough to replace something like Roon.   I am new to Roon but love that it integrates into my Sonos system for the whole house audio, and my Hi-Fi products supporting both my local files and Tidal in a fairly nice to use app.    

[R1200CL]

On 5/20/2021 at 5:55 AM, wklie said:

at this time I am not aware of another way of supporting Apple Music on our products.

Maybe you will have to add HMDI interface. (For AppleTV).

[Marco Klobas]

Apple clarifies about lossless audio in Apple Music.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, Marco Klobas said:

Apple clarifies about lossless audio in Apple Music.

Wow, that’s amazingly honest and tells people everything. 

[Marco Klobas]

The press update is quite clarifying for the average Apple user.

 

They probably noticed the speculations and the buzz spreading on internet. 🙂

 

For the audiophile niche there're still a few things to understand about how to benefit the hi-res stuff.

 

It seems that lossless hi-res will be "limited" to the Mac/iPhone/iPad -> DAC solution only. I was (and still am) hoping for a Wi-Fi solution (AirPlay).

[BrownMagic]

According to Apple, AppleTV and the HomePods will get lossless support with a future software update. Since the HomePod doesn’t have Ethernet, my guess would be Airplay 3 is on its way. 

[Mike Rubin]

This is in Apple's FAQ and it is clear as mud:

 

"Can I redownload my iTunes purchases in lossless?

"If you subscribe to Apple Music, you can redownload music in lossless only from the Apple Music catalog." 

 

Does this mean that Apple Music acts like iTunes Match to extent the content is now available in the Apple Music catalogue, so you can play the downloaded file on devices that are not linked to Apple's infrastructure?  Or does it just mean that, so long as you remain an Apple Music subscriber, you can download any Apple Music material (including your iTunes purchases) for offline playback in Apple Music?  Or does it mean something else altogether?

 

I worked at Apple for 12 years.  Helping Apple avoid transparency for the sake of liability avoidance was a chunk of my job.  That culture hasn't changed, so I doubt that Apple will be much more forthcoming about this and we will just have to wait and see what works and what doesn't. 

 

That said, if being a subscriber means being able to upgrade to lossless my purchased files and be able to play them after my subscription ends, this streaming-service-non-fan happily will subscribe to Apple Music for as long as it takes to upgrade my purchased content. 

[Marco Klobas]

It means that Apple Music subscribers can download locally DRM lossless tracks. Not buy them or convert the already bought songs from AAC to ALAC.

 

If you already have some Apple Music's tracks downloaded (again, AAC, DRM, for off line listening) you can delete them and download again in lossless ALAC.

[Marco Klobas]

I think that we agree that this Apple Music lossless/hi-res launch is choppy.

 

That said, it's interesting to observe the attention this audio topic has grabbed, though. I mean, among regular users, not audiophiles.

 

Granted, a lot of them enthusiastically jumped on this lossless bandwagon without knowing exactly what all this is about.

 

Funny enough, they discovered that they can't enjoy this audio bliss because current casual Apple devices aren't fully compatible.

 

Questions about new headphones and DACs are already popping out. Their wallets surely won't be lossless... 🙂

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Marco Klobas said:

It means that Apple Music subscribers can download locally DRM lossless tracks. Not buy them or convert the already bought songs from AAC to ALAC.

 

If you already have some Apple Music's tracks downloaded (again, AAC, DRM, for off line listening) you can delete them and download again in lossless ALAC.

I don't doubt you can download again Apple Music tracks previously downloaded for offline Apple Music listening.  The reference was to "iTunes purchases," though, not to previously downloaded Apple Music tracks. 

[Marco Klobas]

It's an "elegant/smart" answer about iTunes purchases to inform that it's not possible to upgrade owned purchases to ALAC, inviting users to subscribe to Apple Music if they aren't already. 🙂

 

That's my interpretation.