A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[kennyb123]

I’ve purchased quite a few MoFi SACDs.  I had found them to be pretty good but not to the point where I would give a strong recommendation to any of their reissues.  (Only exception is one of their CDs, The Yes Album, which gets my highest recommendation).  I’ve been gargle-blasting many of my MoFi SACDs.  I have been consistently arriving at the conclusion that these MoFi masterings are freaking awesome.  PGGB has been the missing ingredient, at least as far as my gear goes.

 

I don’t know how well the reissue of the album that’s pictured below compares to all the other versions.  But it gets my strongest recommendation nonetheless.  I would say the same thing in regards to their reissue of The Cars.  PGGB injects life into these albums.  As a result you will find it impossible to not tap your toe.

 

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, sig8 said:

DAC bits 24, buffer; I tried 250 and 0, both cause buffering.

 

I will defer to the AL experts - I haven't used AL in over 2 years. I do seem to remember Piero enabling some systemwide ALSA config options - not sure if that is even relevant now.

 

Anyway, your best bet would be to seek advice on the AL thread, mentioning you're trying samples rates of 1411.2/1536 kHz.

[StreamFidelity]

14 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Convolution is a less publicized feature of PGGB, I am not aware of anyone other than me using it :)

 

What do you do when you move (new room) or buy new headphones / speakers?

[TheAttorney]

As a hifi minimalist, whose current objective is to further downsize (in quantity not quality), I'm probably not the ideal candidate for PGGB. I'm proud of the fact that my entire redbook album collection fits onto a tiny USB thumb drive directly plugged into my NUC. The idea of replacing this thumb drive with a bank of 10GB storage units fills me with dread. 

 

Nevertheless, FOMO got the better of me, so I compared PGGB to my current system:

     Euphony Stylus on NUC7i7DN > ISORegen > M-Scaler > DAVE

 

Firstly, the conversion process worked fine despite a low-ish spec'd 16GB i7 SSD laptop. I did allocate plenty of virtual memory on SSD. Not surprisingly, it took a while, 3-4 minutes per typical file for 8FS/24 and 7-8 minutes for 16FS/32.

All other PSSG settings left at default.

 

And I tried each version with and without m-scaler in place (16FS/32 not great with m-scaler, as predicted).

 

The bottom line is that, despite showing some promise, I didn't get get that first round knock-out of PGGB over m-scaler. There was no game-changing moment that others have reported, and I had to A/B swap to check which I preferred. And these days, if I have to repeatedly A/B something to quantify the difference, then I don't bother - the new item has to give an immediate OMG effect or it doesn't stay.

 

Which is both disappointing and a great relief because I can now park PGGB as an interesting concept that is not appropriate for me at this point in my hifi journey. I'm still puzzled though why I didn't hear the amazing things others have reported.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

5 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

What do you do when you move (new room) or buy new headphones / speakers?

Both my Omega CAMs sitting  on my desk and my electrostatic HPs have been with  me  for several years now. I use the Omega CAMs in a near field setup. But if there is a change, of course i will have to gargle blast my library again with new EQ. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I will defer to the AL experts - I haven't used AL in over 2 years. I do seem to remember Piero enabling some systemwide ALSA config options - not sure if that is even relevant now.

 

Anyway, your best bet would be to seek advice on the AL thread, mentioning you're trying samples rates of 1411.2/1536 kHz.

The issue turned out to be Jriver being used for library management, which I found very interesting as I was not aware Jriver can be used with HQPe.

[Progisus]

I hooked my SRC-DX to my H2 and sent my 32bit files to it. Everything reported 32 bits and sounded excellent. Is there a 32b to 24b coax conversion in the DX? Should I be hearing a sound degradation by not using 24b pggb files?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

21 minutes ago, Progisus said:

I hooked my SRC-DX to my H2 and sent my 32bit files to it. Everything reported 32 bits and sounded excellent. Is there a 32b to 24b coax conversion in the DX? Should I be hearing a sound degradation by not using 24b pggb files?

DX will truncate 32bits to 24bits which negates the noise shaping, yet surprisingly does not degrade SQ as much as I had expected. However, noise shaping to 24bits will reward you even more on the SQ front. I am not turning back after I installed DX, I am in the process of converting all of my library to 24 bits and as a bonus shaved 25% in space.

[R1200CL]

On 4/18/2021 at 1:49 AM, romaz said:

As for the ideal platform for PGGB, you will want a DAC that excels in PCM.  PGGB can handle all of your files including any DSD512 files you might have but ultimately, they will be converted to PCM.  The higher the sampling rate of PCM your DAC can handle, the better and there are some DACs today that can read 1,536kHz PCM files but it's important that your DAC adds no further processing to a PGGB file and hence, you will want a PCM DAC that has a NOS (non-oversampling) mode or a digital filter bypass mode.

Could anyone by reading the technical data available for my DAC give me some guess if my DAC ought to benefit from the PGGB ?

 

https://www.thetadigital.com/generationviii/

 

I just start reading this tread. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

11 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Could anyone by reading the technical data available for my DAC give me some guess if my DAC ought to benefit from the PGGB ?

 

https://www.thetadigital.com/generationviii/

 

I just start reading this tread. 

Given your DAC accepts at most 192kHz/24 bits and internally does 8x upsampling,  the chances are low that PGGB will be a good match, but there is no harm in trying as I have had some positive feedback from using PGGB with Yiggy (admittedly a different architecture). Also if you have DSDs in your library and a lot of Redbook, you can try and let us know.

[davide256]

In the FWIW column, its working well/faster for me to save direct to NAS (WD 6TB Red Plus ) than to save to local NVMe drive (Samsung 970+), batch copy later.

 

A 1 pass conversion (on i5/32GB PC) averaged about 20 minutes to complete at 768/32; Fiedlers "Rhapsody in Blue" took 40 minutes because 2 tracks were longer than 12:25.

WIth PGGB conversion PC and NAS on dedicated GigE audio switch no worries about IP network misbehavior causing a file transfer glitch.

Network music directory scan/caching can be more erratic/slower during PGGB conversion writes to NAS.

 

[R1200CL]

It’s my understanding after just after reading a few posts, that a powerful computer is needed. Now, assuming this is more or less a one time operation, I was wondering if anyone had looked into the option of renting a server in the cloud ? Is this a way to go ? And if not, why ?

[muski]

2 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

DX will truncate 32bits to 24bits which negates the noise shaping, yet surprisingly does not degrade SQ as much as I had expected. However, noise shaping to 24bits will reward you even more on the SQ front. I am not turning back after I installed DX, I am in the process of converting all of my library to 24 bits and as a bonus shaved 25% in space.

Great idea with many benefits. First, 768/24 files are MojoPoly-friendly as mconnect is 24 bits max. 

But I also like that I can connect my SRC-DX to the 3/4 BNCs on my DAVE for PGGB local files, and connect my M Scaler + OPTO-DX  to 1/2 BNCs for upscaling Qobuz.  I think I’ll use the Innuos Phoenix on the PGGB chain. 

[austinpop]

32 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

It’s my understanding after just after reading a few posts, that a powerful computer is needed. Now, assuming this is more or less a one time operation, I was wondering if anyone had looked into the option of renting a server in the cloud ? Is this a way to go ? And if not, why ?

 

Standing up a VM in the cloud with the necessary resources is pretty straightforward. The big issue is the cost (in time and $$) to move native files to the VM (ingress), and huge upsampled files from the VM back to you (egress).

 

That said, never say never, this is being looked at!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

 

41 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

It’s my understanding after just after reading a few posts, that a powerful computer is needed.

This too depends on DAC and library. For PGGB RAM is more important than raw horse power.  Many have used 16GB PC/Mac to trial PGGB and some are using PCs with 32GB of RAM and i5/i7 processors for gargle blasting their libraries.

[dmance]

13 hours ago, Progisus said:

I hooked my SRC-DX to my H2 and sent my 32bit files to it. Everything reported 32 bits and sounded excellent. Is there a 32b to 24b coax conversion in the DX? Should I be hearing a sound degradation by not using 24b pggb files?

Chord DACs are 24 bits internal. So even a 32bit USB setting will waste 8 bits. Of course DX is just dual SPDIF which is 24 bit in the signal. As mentioned by others, set PGGB to output 24 bits for best sq to Chord DACs

[ray-dude]

On USB input for Chord DAVE, 32 bit was the winner for me. With SRC-DX, 24 bit is the clear winner (and a big step up over USB direct…thanks Dan!).  That being said, all bit depths are pretty awesome, tweaking but depth is more about icing on the cake. 
 

So much about PGGB is about finding the right synergy with your DAC. The good news for me has been differences have been very easy to hear, so dialing in has been a pretty quick exercise. 

[Fourlegs]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

On USB input for Chord DAVE, 32 bit was the winner for me. With SRC-DX, 24 bit is the clear winner (and a big step up over USB direct…thanks Dan!).  That being said, all bit depths are pretty awesome, tweaking but depth is more about icing on the cake. 
 

So much about PGGB is about finding the right synergy with your DAC. The good news for me has been differences have been very easy to hear, so dialing in has been a pretty quick exercise. 

 

A double 👍 👍 for all that Ray said there which coincides with my experiences.

If anyone in the UK isn't sure about going the SRC-DX route I have a spare one that I can post out to be borrowed for a few days.

[HeeBroG]

13 hours ago, muski said:

Great idea with many benefits. First, 768/24 files are MojoPoly-friendly as mconnect is 24 bits max. 

But I also like that I can connect my SRC-DX to the 3/4 BNCs on my DAVE for PGGB local files, and connect my M Scaler + OPTO-DX  to 1/2 BNCs for upscaling Qobuz.  I think I’ll use the Innuos Phoenix on the PGGB chain. 

Hi Muski.

 

Does that mean your server has to run both the Amanero USB driver and CommTrue?

 

How do you switch between the 2 or is it automatic?

 

Geoff

[dmance]

I fell in love with PGGB after upsampling the first few tracks with the demo version. After purchasing the licensed version I knew I wanted to use the command line version for better integration into my AudioWise product testing environment. I then evolved a very useful workflow utility ...something that would make selecting folders and managing batch PGGB processing easier. I decided that it was too good not to share with other PGGB users. So today I have posted, as a $free product, PGGB-IT! Workflow App on my AudioWise site. It's a Windows 10 console application that does PGGB batch processing on a queue of folders stored in a Windows Explorer library. The included companion QUEUE-IT! application allows you to add folders to the queue using per-folder drag-drop from Explorer or per-album 'Send to' directly from JRiver Media Center. PGGB-IT! then grabs the list of input folders from the library and runs PGGB (programmatically) on them to the output folder - using FQN pathing.  And while you are waiting for the current batch

to finish, you can load up more folders in the queue and PGGB-IT! will process those as well. The diagram below says it all

If there are any Window10 users out there playing with PGGB, please download and give it a try!

 

Dan

 

[muski]

20 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

Hi Muski.

 

Does that mean your server has to run both the Amanero USB driver and CommTrue?

 

How do you switch between the 2 or is it automatic?

 

Geoff

I’m using two streamers—one OpticalRendu and one Ultrarendu. Then I switch inputs on the DAVE.

[musicme2]

First off a big hello to all I have  just joined .

Have been reading about the software PGGB and have downloaded the trail version to hear for my self .

After I did the resampling and installed on my Innuos , nothing happens just a slight humming . Emailed

for some feed back and was informed that Innuos Zenith is not compatable with PGGB and may ask some

one on this forum if they have had that issue and some how made it work for them .

I only play files out of the Innuos from the SSD into Dave /Mscaler , I do not stream music and buy most of

my music from Bandcamp .

Any advice would be welcomed .

petro

[chrille]

14 hours ago, dmance said:

I fell in love with PGGB after upsampling the first few tracks with the demo version. After purchasing the licensed version I knew I wanted to use the command line version for better integration into my AudioWise product testing environment. I then evolved a very useful workflow utility ...something that would make selecting folders and managing batch PGGB processing easier. I decided that it was too good not to share with other PGGB users. So today I have posted, as a $free product, PGGB-IT! Workflow App on my AudioWise site. It's a Windows 10 console application that does PGGB batch processing on a queue of folders stored in a Windows Explorer library. The included companion QUEUE-IT! application allows you to add folders to the queue using per-folder drag-drop from Explorer or per-album 'Send to' directly from JRiver Media Center. PGGB-IT! then grabs the list of input folders from the library and runs PGGB (programmatically) on them to the output folder - using FQN pathing.  And while you are waiting for the current batch

to finish, you can load up more folders in the queue and PGGB-IT! will process those as well. The diagram below says it all

If there are any Window10 users out there playing with PGGB, please download and give it a try!

 

Dan

 

Interesting! I am still thinking of how to go about this to be able to process PGGB myself, but impressed by what I have heard mainly thanks to Austinpop.

I can play PGGB´d files on my old mbp via Audirvana+ but with recent developments on that platform and the need to get a more capable computer but ideally still a laptop this may be something to consider for me?

My only experience with Jriver was via Rob Watts MSI laptop in Singapore a few years ago. Is Jriver still a player I can buy without having  to  pay annual subscriptions?

If so, and if there are Windows laptops with at least 64gb ram  I may  consider abandoning Mac.

Or are you considering offering a similar workflow for macs?

With luck there might be 64gb ram mbps soon but will there be any players that are not subsciption based on the mac platform?

Cheers Chrille

[chrille]

On 6/1/2021 at 6:49 AM, ray-dude said:

On USB input for Chord DAVE, 32 bit was the winner for me. With SRC-DX, 24 bit is the clear winner (and a big step up over USB direct…thanks Dan!).  That being said, all bit depths are pretty awesome, tweaking but depth is more about icing on the cake. 
 

So much about PGGB is about finding the right synergy with your DAC. The good news for me has been differences have been very easy to hear, so dialing in has been a pretty quick exercise. 

How does SRC-DX improve over 32 bits usb?

My impression via my humble Qutest usb direct compared to Mcaler/Qutest/Wave Storm is that I get an even cleaner signal with a slightly lower noise-floor with PGGB/usb than mscaled.

I have confirmed this thanks to Austinpop with one track Mahler´s 5th first mov where my reference point is the LIVE sound in the hall/mic feed at sessions/ native dsd 64,and now also PGGB via usb.

And three other tracks jsut comparing mscaled  with PGGB yield the same results.

Ie PGGB sounds even better than Mscaled to me via my systems and easily audible even with my humble Qutest.

I would love to hear what Dave sounds like with PGGB both 32 bits/usb and with the SRC-DX.

Mic feed?

Cheers Chrille

[Fourlegs]

16 minutes ago, chrille said:

How does SRC-DX improve over 32 bits usb?

My impression via my humble Qutest usb direct compared to Mcaler/Qutest/Wave Storm is that I get an even cleaner signal with a slightly lower noise-floor with PGGB/usb than mscaled.

I have confirmed this thanks to Austinpop with one track Mahler´s 5th first mov where my reference point is the LIVE sound in the hall/mic feed at sessions/ native dsd 64,and now also PGGB via usb.

And three other tracks jsut comparing mscaled  with PGGB yield the same results.

Ie PGGB sounds even better than Mscaled to me via my systems and easily audible even with my humble Qutest.

I would love to hear what Dave sounds like with PGGB both 32 bits/usb and with the SRC-DX.

Mic feed?

Cheers Chrille

 

Hi Chrille, well the consensus seems to be that by avoiding the USB input into the Chord Dacs you avoid the Amanero usb controller. It is also said that when Dave is fed via its dual bnc inputs it powers down the USB circuit thereby lowering noise but I have not verified this.

 

Using the SRC-DX usb to dual bnc converter one should set PGGB to convert to 24 bit because the bnc inputs only support up to 24 bit.

 

You might not think that 32bit PGGB files via USB can be improved upon but I am pretty sure as soon as you hear it you will be convinced that 24 bit PGGB via the SRC-SX does indeed sound better than USB.

 

But don't throw away your WAVE STORM cables just yet because you may find they are perfect when used with the SRC-DX. 🤣 👍