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A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic


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Sounds interesting but I wonder if I can utilize this effectively with the Yggdrasil DAC. I have a rather small library of flac files which sound really good in their default redbook format. Would the idea be to upsample these files using PGGB to the highest input sample rate of the DAC? Or, would it not be so worthwhile with a DAC that accepts only up to 24/192?

 

Cheers,

-Rob

 

 

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Since you are acting ambassador(s) for this commercial entity, correct?

 

 

Why does it require internet access?  

 

Have you verified this software works on site owner's CAPS 20 server?  If not please depict a commercially available option "EXTREME" (per your literature) enough to run it using high resolution base rate files.

 

Are either of you being compensated in any form for your participation and/or promotion of PGGB?  

 

Could you explain any of the numerous inside jokes one is presented with during operation of the program?

 

 

 

I would like to wish you the best with this endeavor.  Clearly you believe in it enough to put your personal stamp on it as regular contributors to AS.  The level of interest will no doubt swell due to your participation. 

 

A large question of usability on almost all hardware and lack of trial license prevents doing anything but requesting more detailed information at this point.

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I can say 100% that Roy, Rajiv, and I have had zero compensation, and have zero financial interest of any kind in this project (for example, we all paid full price for our licenses).   I appreciate the sensitivities behind the question though.  I do not consider myself an ambassador, but more of a delighted early adopter and user.  Anything I post is representing me and my personal opinions, and not PGGB or any other vendor.  I am happy to share my experiences though.

 

As to the other questions @Zaphod Beeblebrox is on AS, so he's best to answer the other questions, but I believe the licensing scheme uses internet access (I'm not aware of any other use of internet access...ZB can verify)  

 

I know ZB is a strong advocate of trial licenses (he supported them during the private beta) so as the product formally launches, I'm pretty sure he will continue to do so.  Note that PGGB requires significant amounts of memory to run, so most folks don't have suitable hardware easily available to them.  Most PGGB users have been happy to help process sample tracks for folks.

 

 

 

ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Sonore opticalModule -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Chord DAVE -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers

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I was fortunate to get an invite to join the PGGB beta from @ray-dude.  To say that I was profoundly blown away by the sound quality improvement would be an understatement.  
 

@austinpophas described above the benefits I hear as well.  Density is what I would have listed first too.  I’d just add that the density increase benefits can be heard in both the frequency and time domain.  There’s an increase in the solidity of percussive sounds but that weight is delivered with more realistic rise and fall times.  Anyone who’s heard the Chord HMS will understand this benefit - though to my ears, PGGB takes it to the next level.

 

If you have Chord DAC, you gotta hear this.  For other brands of DACs, the max input sample rate will likely have some say over how impressed you’ll be.  16fs sounds a lot better than 8fs though 8fs still sounds a lot better than not processed at all.

 

Lastly I should point out that the improvement from PGGB is far greater than what we hear from buying high res versions of recording.  This is what high res should have been all along.  

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Chord Hugo TT2 

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali power conditioner, Shunyata Alpha and Delta power cords, Shunyata Alpha interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD60 speaker cables, ASC isothermal tube traps

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1 hour ago, rando said:

Why does it require internet access?  

Thanks for your interest. It requires internet access only in trial mode. It requires firewall access to allow parallel processing, but this is localhost only.

 

1 hour ago, rando said:

Have you verified this software works on site owner's CAPS 20 server?  If not please depict a commercially available option "EXTREME" (per your literature) enough to run it using high resolution base rate files.

 

I have some examples of the type of PCs that can run PGGB. This is off-line processing, so PC noise is not a issue. PGGB - FAQ (remastero.com)

 

1 hour ago, rando said:

 

Could you explain any of the numerous inside jokes one is presented with during operation of the program?

I am a fan of The Hitchhiker's guide to The Galaxy and it is an engineer dad's attempt at humor.

 

1 hour ago, rando said:

A large question of usability on almost all hardware and lack of trial license prevents doing anything but requesting more detailed information at this point.

Yes there is a 30 day free trial. 

 

ps: The website will undergo a few changes in preparation to move from beta.

Author of PGGB, remastero

PGGB•IT! Workflow App for Windows (from Audiowise)

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2 hours ago, Exocer said:

Sounds interesting but I wonder if I can utilize this effectively with the Yggdrasil DAC. I have a rather small library of flac files which sound really good in their default redbook format. Would the idea be to upsample these files using PGGB to the highest input sample rate of the DAC? Or, would it not be so worthwhile with a DAC that accepts only up to 24/192?

 

Cheers,

-Rob

 

 

We have not tried with 4FS DACs before, but the best way to think about it as a Hires remaster. From your experience, if Yiggy benefits from Hires files compared to redbook then it is worth giving a go. Another use case is if you had access to DXD or DSD tracks, you can use PGGB to remaster them to 4FS rates in a transparent fashion. 

Author of PGGB, remastero

PGGB•IT! Workflow App for Windows (from Audiowise)

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Is there a version which can be used for streaming from Qobuz?

 

What if we say, the remastero engine, with the same uncompromising approach, and its insanely long filters can be part of your audio chain? Reimagine what is possible for real-time playback from both streaming sources and local files.

 

Matt

 

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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17 minutes ago, matthias said:

Is there a version which can be used for streaming from Qobuz?

 

What if we say, the remastero engine, with the same uncompromising approach, and its insanely long filters can be part of your audio chain? Reimagine what is possible for real-time playback from both streaming sources and local files.

 

Matt

 

I lack the time bandwidth to develop a full fledged playback software, nor do I have the software expertise needed. However, I have developed a high performance SDK that can be used by those (such as server vendors) who want to incorporate the remastering into  their playback. 

Author of PGGB, remastero

PGGB•IT! Workflow App for Windows (from Audiowise)

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Something like this was bound to happen ... it's pretty trivial to demonstrate to oneself that offline upsampling CD , or MP3, etc, material, improves SQ, for less than optimal playback chains - just using easily available software one can do this right now; but I guess most people would like the functionality bundled up in a nice package, with all the lights, bells and whistles, 🤪.

 

A quote from their website,

 

Quote

At remastero, we strive to impart the qualities of a live rendition - connecting you to the original performance as it was recorded, teleporting you to the the stage, pulling you closer to the artists.

 

Yeah, right 🙄 ... well, guess what ... that's what's on the recording anyway ... it just takes a fully, or close to it, sorted rig to pull off that 'trick' - and it's been that way ever since digital recordings were released. Guess there will always be money to be made in reinventing the wheel ... and so things move on ... 😏.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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4 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yeah, HMS doesn't get anywhere near the technical performance... :D

 

Heh.  I use your sinc filters for any music not scaled by PGGB.  I actually switched from an Innuos server to an Antipodes server just so I can have this ability.  Plus HQPlayer does a very fine job of playing my PGGB files as well.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Chord Hugo TT2 

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali power conditioner, Shunyata Alpha and Delta power cords, Shunyata Alpha interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD60 speaker cables, ASC isothermal tube traps

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First of all, a thank you for the developer @Zaphod Beeblebrox to work out a unique development of computer audio processing. He found a problem with the processing of the Chord DAVE and decided to do something about it, hats off to you. When reading through the FAQ and the guides, let's get to the gist of things: 

 

i)   How much will it cost 
ii)  What work do I need to do to setup PGGB 
iii) Could there be any benefits to SQ

 

Cost

a) Purchase another 32GB ECC RAM
b) Purchase another 10 TB HDD to store the processed WAV files
c) purchase another 10 TB backup drive to backup the processed wav files
d) Buy the PGGB license

 

That's close to USD1500,  one mortgage payment or a month's rental. 

 

Work involved

 

Adding another Hard drive, replacing RAM is less than a morning's activities, procuring often takes 3 times as long, since I can't usually buy all items from the one place at an optimised price. This results in more freight charges. Internationally, that's a big deal, but over a certain weight, the additional items are trivial.

The wait to process some 125,000 tracks, Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy would be the intro to the complete books of Game of Thrones.

 

SQ Benefits


From reading the responses so far, owners of Chord DACs have the greatest benefit. I don't usually bag other user's DACs since that's their choice to buy, freedom and enjoyment is what its all about, huh. Does this mean then the algorithms in the Chord devices are 'not optimised' to begin with? The Ayre QX-5 20 has marginal effect with PGGB. So far a range of DACs the effect can be marginal or massive. I suppose in time there will be a list of more DACs as users take up PGGB, so the choice of implementation is easier to make.

 

As noted from a long time ago, some DACs are great at Redbook and if you have one of these, higher up natural rates including DSD also will sound great. Seems that the internal high upsampling rates to PCM DACs and then using their filtering is technique that can be bettered. I don't own an NOS DAC, so cannot comment.

 

I also have doubt that increased processing will make the PC any quieter as far as conducting noise emissions is concerned. Forget the wasted hours in trimming processes on Windows, PGGB makes up for that processing noise and then some.

PGGB needs to convert to PCM always, I understand the complexity.  It will also mean direct DSD conversion by the DAC is bypassed. Boo, hiss. 

 

Upsampling

 

The reason I gave up on HQPlayer long ago now, there's a great difficulty in finding the 'right' filter and upsampling rate to DSD or high rate PCM, when the source material can vary so considerably. From the PGGB Guide notes:

"Choose ‘Moderate’ or ‘Dense’ when you need more body. This is especially useful for genres such as classic rock, big band jazz or CDs that may not have the best downsampled quality."

 

I listen to a wide variety of music, so would I need to change the filtering to suit, if I could ever find that medium. That means constant fiddling and tweaking, sorry there's a major negative. For at least three years or more, I gave up on upsampling processing within the software, since the DACs I've owned take care of all that elegantly and let the player software play, as is.

 

Conclusion 

 

The final analysis is the USD1500 could be better spent on noise reduction from the Music Server, like the XE JCAT NET Femto, fanless designs, mechanical isolation, that kind of optimisation is 'real and tangible'.
The added drive for backups and drive replacements is tedious. 
I don't use direct streaming from Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify, those that do will be disappointed (especially with Chord DACs)

 

PGGB based on what's written above, is not for me, sorry about that.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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