Jump to content
IGNORED

A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic


Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yeah, HMS doesn't get anywhere near the technical performance... :D

 

Heh.  I use your sinc filters for any music not scaled by PGGB.  I actually switched from an Innuos server to an Antipodes server just so I can have this ability.  Plus HQPlayer does a very fine job of playing my PGGB files as well.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

I’m using a 2010 Mac Pro as my PGGB processing machine with Windows 10 running in Parallels.  It cost me like $350 a few years ago.  I initially spent $200 to max out RAM to 48 GB.  For Mac users who aren’t interested in buying a PC, this is a good inexpensive option.  
 

What’s cool about the 2010/2012 Mac Pros is that the CPU is easily upgradable by swapping in a new CPU tray.  I swapped out the single core tray for one containing two six core processors.  It processes PGGB without breaking a sweat.  

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

I have 8 TB of storage in my K30 and plan to fill it all with PGGB files.  I'm a little over half way there.  

 

I have successfully played PGGB files off my NAS via Roon/HQPlayer thought on a few files playback has paused on their own during playback.  An EtherRegen unfortunately slows the network coming into my K30 down to 100 mbps, so maybe without this bottleneck these files might play just fine.

 

Once I fill local storage I will likely to follow the jukebox approach described above by @austinpop.  I actually have a sync job set up that syncs all my PGGB files down to the K30.  I can easily enable/disable folders for sync.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
21 hours ago, davide256 said:

Also sounds like it would be wise to upgrade NAS to dual Ethernet port, but less choice on the music server end.

 

Just wanted to mention that this won't give you twice the bandwidth.  What two ethernet ports on a NAS will give you is the ability for two clients to get a full gigabit of throughput.  So if your NAS is serving up music while at the same time another device in your home Is also accessing your NAS, both should get a full gigabit throughput.

 

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
6 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Converted DSD files with PGGB is magical, defies belief.....Been listening to all my DSD rips today... well converted to PCM. 🤪 

It’s really astonishing, isn’t it?  That was the biggest surprise to me.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
5 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

It is best to avoid playing through M-Scalar as M-Scalar will noise shape 32 bit files to 24bits before sending it out via dual BNC. 

Agree with this.  M-Scaler on pass-through robbed the music of a good chunk of the PGGB magic in my system.  

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

What were you feeding to the MScaler? Pggb 24bit or 32bit? Pggb noise shaped or pggb with noise shaping turned off?

8fs and 16fs at 32bits.   Noise shaping on.
 

It was by no means subtle - else I wouldn’t have quickly arrived at the conclusion that the MScaler was a goner.  I wish it hadn’t been such a loss because I would have kept the MScaler as I love it for streaming. But no way was I going to repeatedly swap cables around for when I listen to PGGB.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
12 hours ago, LowOrbit said:

 

But I haven't done the exhaustive testing and comparisons others here clearly have. For now PGGB is a curio for me rather than a definite path as it does not provide an easy route for treating Qobuz streams, which is key for me and why I am focussing on the Dave/HMS and extracting as much performance as I can from those elements. To date I haven't heard enough "improvement" from PGGB to offest the considerable inconvenience adopting this as a core technology would entail for me.

The improvement from PGGB was evident to me within 15 seconds of the first track I heard.   Pretty easy to hear with my TT2 - even when I just scaled up to 8fs.  My point simply being that it shouldn’t take “exhausting testing and comparisons” to hear the benefits of PGGB with a DAVE.  

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
7 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

It turns out it is a fast internal SSD drive and the only partition is the OS partition and it is a 4TB SSD with 2.6Tb of free space, so really bummed why it will not grow beyond about 120GB. Perhaps some mac gurus can chime in.

Memory pressure is what I think might cause the swap file size to grow.  I use iStat Menu to keep an eye on this.  If you see memory pressure pinned at 100% with the swap file not growing then maybe something is amiss.  If memory pressure stays below 100% then that points to macOS not wanting to allocate more swap file because it doesn’t think it needs it.

 

It does seem though that the macOS may be putting a cap on how much it allocates. I also have a MacBook Pro with 16 GB of RAM.  Let me fire up PGGB on it to see what happens.  The 120 GB limit may have something to do with Matlab not being native on an M1.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

I just started gargle-blaming a DSD album with only 16 GB installed in my Mac Pro.  I'll report back later.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
3 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

I just started gargle-blaming a DSD album with only 16 GB installed in my Mac Pro.  I'll report back later.

It's been chugging away slowly.  I must say that I've been impressed by the memory handling thus far.  Fingers crossed that it will continue just humming along.  I'll share some graphs tomorrow after the album completes processing.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

PGGB was able to process an entire SACD's worth of music with only 16 MB of RAM in my Mac Pro.  I'm sure it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to the case where out-of-memory errors were occurring, but I am thinking that the issues there were due to the layer that allows Intel-native code to run on the M1.  

 

The maximum taps value capped all the tracks to 512 million taps.  This appears to have kept PGGB using a very reasonable amount of virtual memory.  The first chart shows the size of the paging file over the last 24 hours.  The second shows the memory pressure over the last 24 hours.  The swap file sufficiently relieved the memory pressure when needed, which is exactly what it should do.

 

Like I said, not apples to apples but most certainly this test was a test of PGGB running on an "underpowered Mac".  I swapped into my 2010 Mac Pro a 6-core tray with only 16 GB of RAM.  The tray I normally use is 12-core tray with 128 GB of RAM.  The M1 is more powerful for sure than the 6-core tray with only 16 GB.  I think when Matlab comes out with a native version on M1, the memory handling situation will improved there for sure.  

 

The graphs were produced using iStat Menus, which I highly recommend.  https://bjango.com/mac/istatmenus/

 

98259906_swapmemory.png.8db41e50581ada0333f7b4e97c0afb27.png1247395899_memorypressure.png.0d66aaf68d32556721229d808c192be7.png

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
6 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

Can you tell me which versions of LMS and Squeezelite you are using? The K50 has 7.9.3 LMS and  1.8.7 Squeezelite player and refuses to play any 16fs files whatever their configuration. I have even tried Roon + squeezelite on the k50 and that refuses to play. 

Same with my K30, so I was surprised to hear that it was possible on the CX.  I sure wish Antipodes’ current models weren’t stuck with older applications.  It’s like we’re second class citizens relative to those who own their former products.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

It would be nice to have more data points and I hope more of those who are using Macs with 64GB or lesser memory can chime in here. 

I can try this on a MacBook Pro with Intel running Big Sur and maybe also Catalina.  I’ll hit you up later for trial licenses.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...
5 hours ago, hanshopf said:

When I recently played them via USB directly into DAVE I was critizised for hereby not doing an apple to apple comparison. So I had to pass them trough Mscaler.

I approached it more as PGGB direct via USB vs M-Scaler via BNCs.  Not apples to apples but an assessment of which path I would ultimately take.  The evaluation didn’t take long for me with PGGB being the clear winner.  I did try to see if I could continue to hang onto the HMS for streaming but even with it set to pass through I thought it robbed some magic from PGGB.

 

I haven’t purchased a SRC-DX doohickey (yet).  I think it’s a testament to how happy I am with PGGB that I feel no need to change anything.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
  • 5 weeks later...
5 hours ago, R1200CL said:


Here is a one possible option. 
https://www.exoscale.com/pricing/
 

They also support iPfire, which mean you should have a trouble free integration with you local network, not to mention Roon. (Yes Roon will have no problem access files in the cloud). 

 

The costs will likely still be high if you are moving lots of data from your instances.  

 

Effectively, there are 1.42 GB of free output bandwidth per instance. If an instance doesn’t use its free tier, it is reported on other running instances of the same organization. So, with 5 instances running during the last hour, there are 7.1 GB of free output bandwidth. The exceeding bandwidth is billed.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

We find a creative way of sharing a cloud service to perform the conversion. 

The objective is obvious.  The problem is the cost cloud services charge for data in and out.  I know of know cloud service that doesn’t make the cost prohibitive.  

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Seems this one doesn’t charge anything for data traffic.

That looks like a good find.  I doubt though that the Microsoft 365 solution will be though, as it runs on Azure so it won’t undercut the Azure pricing.  

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

(duplicate deleted)

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment
19 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

IMHO 4GB of RAM should be a non-starter for PGGB, even their $60 plan would provide just under 30GB of RAM.

It would have to be one of their premium tier offerings.  

 

https://www.dedixlab.com/virtual-servers-premium.html

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...