Time Out: How Dave Brubeck Changed Jazz

[firedog]

Sorry, the guy that made this doesn't know much about the history of Jazz. Brubeck wasn't as much of an  innovator as is always talked about. Others had done those things first. Brubeck got credit b/c he popularized them. 

Two possible reasons people think Brubeck was an innovator: a) he made some catchy, slightly pop Jazz that caught on and was a big seller; b) he was White, so he got the publicity. 

Don't doubt the impact of racism (even if not conscious) back then.

[firedog]

8 minutes ago, semente said:

Can’t rebate you on those “set straights” but it’s disappointing that the clickbait tile claim is all that you got from the video (if you even got to watch it)...

I watched some of it, not all of it. Doesn't matter. Brubeck is given too much credit-and that means others aren't.

[firedog]

51 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

Kinda harsh, especially when you refute yourself by noting that he made "some catchy".  Time Out is an innovative (catchy) masterpiece.

 

It's also not right to assert his popular and critical acclaim is due to his whiteness.  No doubt that racism permeates our society, and that Black musicians have had much harder less fair lives/careers due to this.  But that does not mean that being White somehow made it easy to do what Brubeck--and Elvis, in a more extreme case--did.

 

 

Totally disagree with all of the above.

Max Roach was playing and recording different time signatures before Brubeck. One example. 

[firedog]

39 minutes ago, semente said:

 I am currently reading The Oxford Companion To Jazz and it looks like jazz, from its onset, is as much white as it is black...

Then either the book is mistaken or you misunderstood it. It's not about quantity, it's about invention and creativity.

[firedog]

 

https://www.moderndrummer.com/2007/10/max-roach/

As a bandleader, Max Roach used polyrhythms and odd time signatures in his arrangements of jazz standards and original compositions predating the 1959 commercial and innovative success of great jazz composer Dave Brubeck’s “Take Five,” featuring another drum titan, Joe Morello. Check out the recordings Clifford Brown And Max Roach, from 1955, and Jazz In 3/4 Time, from 1957.

https://slate.com/culture/2007/08/why-max-roach-was-jazz-s-greatest-drummer.html

 

 

."Max recorded the first jazz composition in 5/4 time entitled “As Long As You’re Living”, Which pre-dated Brubeck’s “Take Five 

 

Monk and Sonny Rollins were also involved in these pioneering uses of polyrhythm, time signatures, and polyphony. 

 

https://scottkfish.com/2016/10/02/brubeck-on-roach-and-odd-time-signature  

[firedog]

1 minute ago, semente said:

I’m sure the book is mistaken. It mentions several scholars...

And no scholar has ever published something that misses the mark, right?

[firedog]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

Maybe. English is not my first language...

It's not even a question of English. It's a new custom, mostly US. So even if your English is perfect, your customary spelling may be different. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Jazz is so diverse that it does not really makes sense to claim an album as one of  the "greatest" and "most  influential". However, when applied to "Time out" it becomes comical. You'll be hard pressed to find  musicians who claim that Brubeck was influential, and he is rarely mentioned in jazz criticism. That does not mean you can't enjoy the music. 

It's also possible that some musicians and "criticism" suffers from prejudice against White Jazz musicians. Brubeck might not have been as much of an innovator as some think, that doesn't mean he didn't make some high quality music.

In addition, anyone who can get real Jazz a larger audience  and greater exposure has done a service to the music.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

Also, there is just as much improvisation in Rock as in Jazz.

??????

[firedog]

15 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

 ?????? 

Why are you surprised? 

Because most recorded Rock music has very little improvisation. Even solos are often meticulously recorded and re-recorded.