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Time Out: How Dave Brubeck Changed Jazz


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On 4/4/2021 at 8:18 AM, PeterG said:

 

Kinda harsh, especially when you refute yourself by noting that he made "some catchy".  Time Out is an innovative (catchy) masterpiece.

 

It's also not right to assert his popular and critical acclaim is due to his whiteness.  No doubt that racism permeates our society, and that Black musicians have had much harder less fair lives/careers due to this.  But that does not mean that being White somehow made it easy to do what Brubeck--and Elvis, in a more extreme case--did.

 

Please share recommendations on artists/albums with the time signatures we associate with Brubeck; I'll add them to my playlist.  (And maybe eat my words!)  Thanks

Odd -- I didn't even think about race when enjoying Time Out.   In fact, that is one of my test standards for my software.  (Lots of piano, somewhat natural cymbals, etc.)

Beyond the technical -- as I first mentioned, I totally INNOCENTLY enjoy it.   Now, I'll also think about racial overtones, even though I enjoy other Jazz/Blues/traditional recordings not thinking about race -- will I always need to think about race about everything?

 

 

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1 hour ago, PeterG said:

I agree we live in a racist society.  Your problem with Take Five is really a problem with all of society, so we can leave Dave, Elvis and others out of this. 

 

Also, in some ways separately, it is often difficult for Black people and white people to connect.  But to me, one of the beautiful things about music is that Black, white, rich, poor, old, young...are able to connect and share through music.  

 

I appreciated the Max Roach link above.  You might listen to Fela Kuti, and then hear his influence in Talking Heads's Remain in Light.  I do not think Talking Heads are racist, I think they were influenced, and then delivered something beautiful and new.  Another Talking Heads fan is Angelique Kidjo, from Benin.  In her words, she brought Remain in Light back to Africa with her full cover of the album.  Her version is also excellent.

My only/best friend is a racial minority, and the garbage that infects peoples minds is terrible.   I have seen 'attitudes' in people of all backgrounds -- in my grown-up years, I have been very successful in keeping that garbage out of my mind without even trying much.   I DO understand the various plights, but the world is not a zero-sum situation. 

 

Labels & categories of people are too often an excessively broad brush.

I just dont' care much about race -- I REALLY dont.  It bothers me when a misguided or even maleavolent person  starts seeding little pockets of race-attitudes, which SOMETIMES take root in the vulnerable mind.   Hate really hurts -- I don't like the feeling.

 

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

In fact, there are two opposing schools of thought. One argues that jazz improvisation must be based on the historic African-American tradition, the other is based on the thesis that improvisation is largely free from tradition and can draw its inspiration from anywhere - a widely documented dispute between Wynton Marsalis and Keith Jarrett. Accordingly, adherents of the former view can have a claim against any white musician.

 

THIS BELOW IS MY OPINION, never intended to hurt anyone's feelings....

 

I truly don't like the idea of any one race owning a tradition,  or might I say -- technology.   This kind of thing degrades into an insanely divisive type thing.

 

There  is a current political divisive expediency that a race owns a bad or good previous tradition.  This world should be all about people and individuals life and happiness.  How can a race sanely claim anything that I have done or thought/idea that I have had (whether or not it is a worthwhile thing :-)).

 

It doesn't make any sense to me -- and I am not a lefty wakko, nor right winger wakko -- just a wakko.   What ever happened to true liberalism, acceptance and melting-pot?

Doesn't it exist any more in some peoples minds?   What should it be:  whats yours is mine, but whats mine is mine also?

 

If there is 'race ownership', then there should be rules for it, including about everything.  People of one race shouldn't be able to own a car, yet another race cannot

eat peanut butter?   Only cities of a certain race can use traffic control signs?  In my view, the concept of race ownership is totally insane -- this includes that of

culture.

 

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8 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Mr. Marsalis obviously thinks otherwise. As for me, I don't think anyone would have a good enough reason to think something is his or her own. That includes thoughts and feelings as well. We are all captives of certain cultural prejudices, nothing more.

About thinking that someone really owns something IS a cultural matter.  I am just talking about practicality -- but I do agree that some kinds of ideas are silly to own, but the cost of creation of an idea, even if other ideas used as inputs -- that needs to be considered.

Believe me -- I know that creation of new things is VERY costly in time and money.  I shouldn't be compelled to give the results of my hard work (very hard work) for free, right?  Just because I am agreeable in certain instances, there are still rights of ownership.   RIght  now, I don't have to feed a family, so I can give my work-product away.   Some people REALLY DO need to feed their kids, and society as a group has generally done a poor job of top-down management and supply.   Each of us needs to participate in taking care of ourselves, and part of that is controlling work product -- and sometimes very costly-to-create work product can be intellectual property.


When race can claim an idea -- that is just crazy.  With that kind of thinking, Mr Marsalis better be careful about what he wishes for.   In fact, NO-ONE wins.   There is nothing special about culture either -- again, people should be VERY CAREFUL about what they wish for.

 

 

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