Time Out: How Dave Brubeck Changed Jazz

[PeterG]

51 minutes ago, firedog said:

Sorry, the guy that made this doesn't know much about the history of Jazz. Brubeck wasn't as much of an  innovator as is always talked about. Others had done those things first. Brubeck got credit b/c he popularized them. 

Two possible reasons people think Brubeck was an innovator: a) he made some catchy, slightly pop Jazz that caught on and was a big seller; b) he was White, so he got the publicity. 

Don't doubt the impact of racism (even if not conscious) back then.

 

Kinda harsh, especially when you refute yourself by noting that he made "some catchy".  Time Out is an innovative (catchy) masterpiece.

 

It's also not right to assert his popular and critical acclaim is due to his whiteness.  No doubt that racism permeates our society, and that Black musicians have had much harder less fair lives/careers due to this.  But that does not mean that being White somehow made it easy to do what Brubeck--and Elvis, in a more extreme case--did.

 

Please share recommendations on artists/albums with the time signatures we associate with Brubeck; I'll add them to my playlist.  (And maybe eat my words!)  Thanks

[PeterG]

3 hours ago, semente said:

Regardless of whether Time Out is commercial and kitsch and it’s racist to like over black jazz.

 

No one has said "over black black jazz".  Nor is it even a relevant criticism to ignore people who arrived on the music scene later than their artistic predecessors.  Miles was not the first leading trumpet player, Dylan was not the first folk singer, The Beatles were not the first rock band.  No need for this ridiculous race-baiting. 

 

BTW, many would say your use of 'black" as opposed to "Black" is disrespectful

[PeterG]

4 hours ago, semente said:

 

Maybe. English is not my first language...

 

Sorry.  I should have been kinder and remembered that this board includes people from many different backgrounds.  "Black" is now standard usage in the US, to recognize that it is more than skin color, it also reflects a shared history and culture.  "white" is still the standard for white people, reflecting the more diverse histories and cultures within that group.  These are based on New York Times usage, which is about as close as we can get in the US to an official guide to grammar.

 

 

[PeterG]

5 hours ago, John Dyson said:

Odd -- I didn't even think about race when enjoying Time Out.   In fact, that is one of my test standards for my software.  (Lots of piano, somewhat natural cymbals, etc.)

Beyond the technical -- as I first mentioned, I totally INNOCENTLY enjoy it.   Now, I'll also think about racial overtones, even though I enjoy other Jazz/Blues/traditional recordings not thinking about race -- will I always need to think about race about everything?

 

 

I agree we live in a racist society.  Your problem with Take Five is really a problem with all of society, so we can leave Dave, Elvis and others out of this. 

 

Also, in some ways separately, it is often difficult for Black people and white people to connect.  But to me, one of the beautiful things about music is that Black, white, rich, poor, old, young...are able to connect and share through music.  

 

I appreciated the Max Roach link above.  You might listen to Fela Kuti, and then hear his influence in Talking Heads's Remain in Light.  I do not think Talking Heads are racist, I think they were influenced, and then delivered something beautiful and new.  Another Talking Heads fan is Angelique Kidjo, from Benin.  In her words, she brought Remain in Light back to Africa with her full cover of the album.  Her version is also excellent.