Time Out: How Dave Brubeck Changed Jazz

[semente]

 

[firedog]

Sorry, the guy that made this doesn't know much about the history of Jazz. Brubeck wasn't as much of an  innovator as is always talked about. Others had done those things first. Brubeck got credit b/c he popularized them. 

Two possible reasons people think Brubeck was an innovator: a) he made some catchy, slightly pop Jazz that caught on and was a big seller; b) he was White, so he got the publicity. 

Don't doubt the impact of racism (even if not conscious) back then.

[semente]

44 minutes ago, firedog said:

Sorry, the guy that made this doesn't know much about the history of Jazz. Brubeck wasn't as much of an  innovator as is always talked about. Others had done those things first. Brubeck got credit b/c he popularized them. 

Two possible reasons people think Brubeck was an innovator: a) he made some catchy, slightly pop Jazz that caught on and was a big seller; b) he was White, so he got the publicity. 

Don't doubt the impact of racism (even if not conscious) back then.

Can’t rebate you on those “set straights” but it’s disappointing that the clickbait tile claim is all that you got from the video (if you even got to watch it)...

[firedog]

8 minutes ago, semente said:

Can’t rebate you on those “set straights” but it’s disappointing that the clickbait tile claim is all that you got from the video (if you even got to watch it)...

I watched some of it, not all of it. Doesn't matter. Brubeck is given too much credit-and that means others aren't.

[PeterG]

51 minutes ago, firedog said:

Sorry, the guy that made this doesn't know much about the history of Jazz. Brubeck wasn't as much of an  innovator as is always talked about. Others had done those things first. Brubeck got credit b/c he popularized them. 

Two possible reasons people think Brubeck was an innovator: a) he made some catchy, slightly pop Jazz that caught on and was a big seller; b) he was White, so he got the publicity. 

Don't doubt the impact of racism (even if not conscious) back then.

 

Kinda harsh, especially when you refute yourself by noting that he made "some catchy".  Time Out is an innovative (catchy) masterpiece.

 

It's also not right to assert his popular and critical acclaim is due to his whiteness.  No doubt that racism permeates our society, and that Black musicians have had much harder less fair lives/careers due to this.  But that does not mean that being White somehow made it easy to do what Brubeck--and Elvis, in a more extreme case--did.

 

Please share recommendations on artists/albums with the time signatures we associate with Brubeck; I'll add them to my playlist.  (And maybe eat my words!)  Thanks

[semente]

14 minutes ago, firedog said:

I watched some of it, not all of it. Doesn't matter. Brubeck is given too much credit-and that means others aren't.

Even if you are right, the video is interesting to me because it analyses some aspects of the composition that are ignored or perhaps not obvious to some of us. Regardless of whether Time Out is commercial and kitsch and it’s racist to like over black jazz.

 

 I am currently reading The Oxford Companion To Jazz and it looks like jazz, from its onset, is as much white as it is black...

[firedog]

51 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

Kinda harsh, especially when you refute yourself by noting that he made "some catchy".  Time Out is an innovative (catchy) masterpiece.

 

It's also not right to assert his popular and critical acclaim is due to his whiteness.  No doubt that racism permeates our society, and that Black musicians have had much harder less fair lives/careers due to this.  But that does not mean that being White somehow made it easy to do what Brubeck--and Elvis, in a more extreme case--did.

 

 

Totally disagree with all of the above.

Max Roach was playing and recording different time signatures before Brubeck. One example. 

[firedog]

39 minutes ago, semente said:

 I am currently reading The Oxford Companion To Jazz and it looks like jazz, from its onset, is as much white as it is black...

Then either the book is mistaken or you misunderstood it. It's not about quantity, it's about invention and creativity.

[firedog]

 

https://www.moderndrummer.com/2007/10/max-roach/

As a bandleader, Max Roach used polyrhythms and odd time signatures in his arrangements of jazz standards and original compositions predating the 1959 commercial and innovative success of great jazz composer Dave Brubeck’s “Take Five,” featuring another drum titan, Joe Morello. Check out the recordings Clifford Brown And Max Roach, from 1955, and Jazz In 3/4 Time, from 1957.

https://slate.com/culture/2007/08/why-max-roach-was-jazz-s-greatest-drummer.html

 

 

."Max recorded the first jazz composition in 5/4 time entitled “As Long As You’re Living”, Which pre-dated Brubeck’s “Take Five 

 

Monk and Sonny Rollins were also involved in these pioneering uses of polyrhythm, time signatures, and polyphony. 

 

https://scottkfish.com/2016/10/02/brubeck-on-roach-and-odd-time-signature  

[semente]

31 minutes ago, firedog said:

Then either the book is mistaken or you misunderstood it. It's not about quantity, it's about invention and creativity.

I’m sure the book is mistaken. It mentions several scholars...

[firedog]

1 minute ago, semente said:

I’m sure the book is mistaken. It mentions several scholars...

And no scholar has ever published something that misses the mark, right?

[PeterG]

3 hours ago, semente said:

Regardless of whether Time Out is commercial and kitsch and it’s racist to like over black jazz.

 

No one has said "over black black jazz".  Nor is it even a relevant criticism to ignore people who arrived on the music scene later than their artistic predecessors.  Miles was not the first leading trumpet player, Dylan was not the first folk singer, The Beatles were not the first rock band.  No need for this ridiculous race-baiting. 

 

BTW, many would say your use of 'black" as opposed to "Black" is disrespectful

[semente]

2 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

No one has said "over black black jazz".  Nor is it even a relevant criticism to ignore people who arrived on the music scene later than their artistic predecessors.  Miles was not the first leading trumpet player, Dylan was not the first folk singer, The Beatles were not the first rock band.  No need for this ridiculous race-baiting. 

 

BTW, many would say your use of 'black" as opposed to "Black" is disrespectful

 

Maybe. English is not my first language...

[firedog]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

Maybe. English is not my first language...

It's not even a question of English. It's a new custom, mostly US. So even if your English is perfect, your customary spelling may be different. 

[cab33]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

Sorry, the guy that made this doesn't know much about the history of Jazz. Brubeck wasn't as much of an  innovator as is always talked about. Others had done those things first. Brubeck got credit b/c he popularized them. 

Two possible reasons people think Brubeck was an innovator: a) he made some catchy, slightly pop Jazz that caught on and was a big seller; b) he was White, so he got the publicity. 

Don't doubt the impact of racism (even if not conscious) back then.

 

Who changed time signatures the way he did?

 

Polyrhythms have been in jazz from the beginning - they can be found in the ring dances in the fields before it was called Congo Square.

 

As for the 'theft' don't get me started on Dixieland.  Or, worse, those stupid little Kokopelli images white people stick all over the place.

[PeterG]

4 hours ago, semente said:

 

Maybe. English is not my first language...

 

Sorry.  I should have been kinder and remembered that this board includes people from many different backgrounds.  "Black" is now standard usage in the US, to recognize that it is more than skin color, it also reflects a shared history and culture.  "white" is still the standard for white people, reflecting the more diverse histories and cultures within that group.  These are based on New York Times usage, which is about as close as we can get in the US to an official guide to grammar.

 

 

[John Dyson]

On 4/4/2021 at 8:18 AM, PeterG said:

 

Kinda harsh, especially when you refute yourself by noting that he made "some catchy".  Time Out is an innovative (catchy) masterpiece.

 

It's also not right to assert his popular and critical acclaim is due to his whiteness.  No doubt that racism permeates our society, and that Black musicians have had much harder less fair lives/careers due to this.  But that does not mean that being White somehow made it easy to do what Brubeck--and Elvis, in a more extreme case--did.

 

Please share recommendations on artists/albums with the time signatures we associate with Brubeck; I'll add them to my playlist.  (And maybe eat my words!)  Thanks

Odd -- I didn't even think about race when enjoying Time Out.   In fact, that is one of my test standards for my software.  (Lots of piano, somewhat natural cymbals, etc.)

Beyond the technical -- as I first mentioned, I totally INNOCENTLY enjoy it.   Now, I'll also think about racial overtones, even though I enjoy other Jazz/Blues/traditional recordings not thinking about race -- will I always need to think about race about everything?

 

 

[PeterG]

5 hours ago, John Dyson said:

Odd -- I didn't even think about race when enjoying Time Out.   In fact, that is one of my test standards for my software.  (Lots of piano, somewhat natural cymbals, etc.)

Beyond the technical -- as I first mentioned, I totally INNOCENTLY enjoy it.   Now, I'll also think about racial overtones, even though I enjoy other Jazz/Blues/traditional recordings not thinking about race -- will I always need to think about race about everything?

 

 

I agree we live in a racist society.  Your problem with Take Five is really a problem with all of society, so we can leave Dave, Elvis and others out of this. 

 

Also, in some ways separately, it is often difficult for Black people and white people to connect.  But to me, one of the beautiful things about music is that Black, white, rich, poor, old, young...are able to connect and share through music.  

 

I appreciated the Max Roach link above.  You might listen to Fela Kuti, and then hear his influence in Talking Heads's Remain in Light.  I do not think Talking Heads are racist, I think they were influenced, and then delivered something beautiful and new.  Another Talking Heads fan is Angelique Kidjo, from Benin.  In her words, she brought Remain in Light back to Africa with her full cover of the album.  Her version is also excellent.

[John Dyson]

1 hour ago, PeterG said:

I agree we live in a racist society.  Your problem with Take Five is really a problem with all of society, so we can leave Dave, Elvis and others out of this. 

 

Also, in some ways separately, it is often difficult for Black people and white people to connect.  But to me, one of the beautiful things about music is that Black, white, rich, poor, old, young...are able to connect and share through music.  

 

I appreciated the Max Roach link above.  You might listen to Fela Kuti, and then hear his influence in Talking Heads's Remain in Light.  I do not think Talking Heads are racist, I think they were influenced, and then delivered something beautiful and new.  Another Talking Heads fan is Angelique Kidjo, from Benin.  In her words, she brought Remain in Light back to Africa with her full cover of the album.  Her version is also excellent.

My only/best friend is a racial minority, and the garbage that infects peoples minds is terrible.   I have seen 'attitudes' in people of all backgrounds -- in my grown-up years, I have been very successful in keeping that garbage out of my mind without even trying much.   I DO understand the various plights, but the world is not a zero-sum situation. 

 

Labels & categories of people are too often an excessively broad brush.

I just dont' care much about race -- I REALLY dont.  It bothers me when a misguided or even maleavolent person  starts seeding little pockets of race-attitudes, which SOMETIMES take root in the vulnerable mind.   Hate really hurts -- I don't like the feeling.

 

 

 

 

 

[fas42]

I'm strongly attitudist - that is, people who push the "Man, have I got an attitude about this!!" button every time you speak to them pee me off big time - and some of the worst I've come across, are from "racial" or other minorities ...

 

Sorry, your first job is to be human ... layering on the heavy atmosphere of, "I've got a chip, no, that's two heavy logs on my shoulders" thing is going to put me off - come back when you get yourself a bit more balanced, thank you!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Jazz is so diverse that it does not really makes sense to claim an album as one of  the "greatest" and "most  influential". However, when applied to "Time out" it becomes comical. You'll be hard pressed to find  musicians who claim that Brubeck was influential, and he is rarely mentioned in jazz criticism. That does not mean you can't enjoy the music. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Jazz is so diverse that it does not really makes sense to claim an album as one of  the "greatest" and "most  influential". However, when applied to "Time out" it becomes comical. You'll be hard pressed to find  musicians who claim that Brubeck was influential, and he is rarely mentioned in jazz criticism. That does not mean you can't enjoy the music. 

It's also possible that some musicians and "criticism" suffers from prejudice against White Jazz musicians. Brubeck might not have been as much of an innovator as some think, that doesn't mean he didn't make some high quality music.

In addition, anyone who can get real Jazz a larger audience  and greater exposure has done a service to the music.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 hours ago, firedog said:

It's also possible that some musicians and "criticism" suffers from prejudice against White Jazz musicians. Brubeck might not have been as much of an innovator as some think, that doesn't mean he didn't make some high quality music.

In addition, anyone who can get real Jazz a larger audience  and greater exposure has done a service to the music.

 

Perhaps, but there are plenty of white jazz musicians who achieved critical praise:  Bix Beiderbecke, Django Reinhardt, Benny Goodman, Pee Wee Russell, Woody Herman, Mel Powell, Zoot Sims, Art Pepper, Stan Getz, Gerry Mulligan,  Bill Evans, Gil Evans, and many others...

 

These debates on race are a little sterile when it comes simply to music appreciation, which should really be color blind. Coleman Hawkins admired Pablo Casals, Ella Fitzgerald the Boswell Sisters, Ray Charles and Charlie Parker dug country music, etc... 

 

[AnotherSpin]

In fact, there are two opposing schools of thought. One argues that jazz improvisation must be based on the historic African-American tradition, the other is based on the thesis that improvisation is largely free from tradition and can draw its inspiration from anywhere - a widely documented dispute between Wynton Marsalis and Keith Jarrett. Accordingly, adherents of the former view can have a claim against any white musician.

[John Dyson]

38 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

In fact, there are two opposing schools of thought. One argues that jazz improvisation must be based on the historic African-American tradition, the other is based on the thesis that improvisation is largely free from tradition and can draw its inspiration from anywhere - a widely documented dispute between Wynton Marsalis and Keith Jarrett. Accordingly, adherents of the former view can have a claim against any white musician.

 

THIS BELOW IS MY OPINION, never intended to hurt anyone's feelings....

 

I truly don't like the idea of any one race owning a tradition,  or might I say -- technology.   This kind of thing degrades into an insanely divisive type thing.

 

There  is a current political divisive expediency that a race owns a bad or good previous tradition.  This world should be all about people and individuals life and happiness.  How can a race sanely claim anything that I have done or thought/idea that I have had (whether or not it is a worthwhile thing :-)).

 

It doesn't make any sense to me -- and I am not a lefty wakko, nor right winger wakko -- just a wakko.   What ever happened to true liberalism, acceptance and melting-pot?

Doesn't it exist any more in some peoples minds?   What should it be:  whats yours is mine, but whats mine is mine also?

 

If there is 'race ownership', then there should be rules for it, including about everything.  People of one race shouldn't be able to own a car, yet another race cannot

eat peanut butter?   Only cities of a certain race can use traffic control signs?  In my view, the concept of race ownership is totally insane -- this includes that of

culture.