Audio "Digititus" inducing music?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 3/27/2021 at 4:35 PM, davide256 said:

My definition of audio digititus

     a unique sensation from digital music in the treble region usually associated with irritation from the piece played and listening fatigue even with

    favorite pieces. A subtle "thats not right" (see Galaxy Quest for context) feeling during playback that can cause one to flee to other pieces

 

I am curious if others have observed as I have that particular pieces, recordings excite audio digititus in their system. When I first became a CA/AS

member, it was the bane of much of what I played. Over the years following member experiments and postings have really helped me to whittle it down.

 

Music by "The Cranberries" used to be not just irritating but actually painful to listen to; with member recommended server and DDC improvements,

now its just bright.

 

Where I perceive digititus remaining  now in my system is mass women's choir and violins, in movie soundtracks like Avatar, Ready Player One. Its like the

fundamental frequencies are right but the harmonics are distorted/off pitch. I bought the vinyl versions of both, no like issues there.

 

Anyone else want to name music that creates this love/hate relationship for them?

 

 

Can you share a specific track which you find particularly irritating ? I would be curious to listen to one.

 

I've had a similar experience at someone's house where some tracks sounded particularly harsh (in the highs as well), but were fine when I played them in my system. This did not happen with all tracks that day... The explanation from this person was that his system was more transparent... Could be ! I think on that day there was something wrong with his (I'd heard it sound better) - and it may not have had to do with the digital side of things. 

 

Here's a track that was quite irritating (not to my taste, but that's besides the point) - I doubt it had anything to do with the recording:

 

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/04 camélia jordana %26 baptiste trotignon - i'm a fool to want you.flac

 

[davide256]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Can you share a specific track which you find particularly irritating ? I would be curious to listen to one.

 

I've had a similar experience at someone's house where some tracks sounded particularly harsh (in the highs as well), but were fine when I played them in my system. This did not happen with all tracks that day... The explanation from this person was that his system was more transparent... Could be ! I think on that day there was something wrong with his (I'd heard it sound better) - and it may not have had to do with the digital side of things. 

 

Here's a track that was quite irritating (not to my taste, but that's besides the point) - I doubt it had anything to do with the recording:

 

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/04 camélia jordana %26 baptiste trotignon - i'm a fool to want you.flac

 

For "Ready Player One" 96/24 flac download, the wordless choir passages

track 1/ The Oasis

track 18/ This is wrong

 

For Avatar 44/16 cd ripped flac version, wordless choir passage

track 6/ Climbing up to iknimaya

 

The Lord of the Rings 44/16 cd ripped flac version, wordless? choir

track 14/Lothlorien

 

available on Qobuz, same issue as local play

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

50 minutes ago, davide256 said:

For "Ready Player One" 96/24 flac download, the wordless choir passages

track 1/ The Oasis

track 18/ This is wrong

 

For Avatar 44/16 cd ripped flac version, wordless choir passage

track 6/ Climbing up to iknimaya

 

The Lord of the Rings 44/16 cd ripped flac version, wordless? choir

track 14/Lothlorien

 

available on Qobuz, same issue as local play

 

Thanks. I'll give them a try tonight and report back. It may not be of much use to you, but I am curious to see myself what they sound like.

[davide256]

13 hours ago, Rexp said:

Try this for massed strings/choral recorded at 16/44.1:

 

 

Qobuz has the 2006 re release of the 1986 recording, I'll give that a try.

 

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Placido-Domingo-Katia-Ricciarelli-Justino-Diaz-Orcestra-e-Coro-del-Teatro-alla-Scala-/release/12960728

 

[fas42]

13 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Here's a track that was quite irritating (not to my taste, but that's besides the point) - I doubt it had anything to do with the recording:

 

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/04 camélia jordana %26 baptiste trotignon - i'm a fool to want you.flac

 

 

Pretty obvious ... the vocal style, her technique, and the miking add up to creating the impression that the recording studio is swimming in spit ... 😆

[davide256]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

Qobuz has the 2006 re release of the 1986 recording, I'll give that a try.

 

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Placido-Domingo-Katia-Ricciarelli-Justino-Diaz-Orcestra-e-Coro-del-Teatro-alla-Scala-/release/12960728

 

@Rexp Ouch! this one wasn't very good in the treble, perhaps badly remastered?

 

much preferred sampling the Serafin recording on Qobuz, better dynamic range, treble clarity, original performance date and CD release hard to determine but probably analog

 

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Jon-Vickers-Leonie-Rysanek-Tito-Gobbi-Rome-Opera-Orchestra-And-Chorus-Tullio-Serafin-/release/8902956

 

Sampled the Levine performance (1978) its nice in CD rate, a little recessed in treble, has to be analog originally

 

https://www.discogs.com/Verdi-Plácido-Domingo-Renata-Scotto-Sherrill-Milnes-National-Philharmonic-Orchestra-James-Levine-Ot/release/10771958

 

Did find this 1987 live performance with Mehta,  its good for treble and dynamics at CD rate, Qobuz has it mis-tagged for someone named Kaludi Kaludov

 

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14014/

 

enjoying this  now, will give it  a play straight through

[Rexp]

40 minutes ago, davide256 said:

@Rexp Ouch! this one wasn't very good in the treble, perhaps badly remastered?

 

much preferred sampling the Serafin recording on Qobuz, better dynamic range, treble clarity, original performance date and CD release hard to determine but probably analog

 

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Jon-Vickers-Leonie-Rysanek-Tito-Gobbi-Rome-Opera-Orchestra-And-Chorus-Tullio-Serafin-/release/8902956

 

Sampled the Levine performance (1978) its nice in CD rate, a little recessed in treble, has to be analog originally

 

https://www.discogs.com/Verdi-Plácido-Domingo-Renata-Scotto-Sherrill-Milnes-National-Philharmonic-Orchestra-James-Levine-Ot/release/10771958

 

Did find this 1987 live performance with Mehta,  its good for treble and dynamics at CD rate, Qobuz has it mis-tagged for someone named Kaludi Kaludov

 

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14014/

 

enjoying this  now, will give it  a play straight through

Yeah I was recommending the vinyl, ie what you asked for..

[Rexp]

15 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Can you share a specific track which you find particularly irritating ? I would be curious to listen to one.

 

I've had a similar experience at someone's house where some tracks sounded particularly harsh (in the highs as well), but were fine when I played them in my system. This did not happen with all tracks that day... The explanation from this person was that his system was more transparent... Could be ! I think on that day there was something wrong with his (I'd heard it sound better) - and it may not have had to do with the digital side of things. 

 

Here's a track that was quite irritating (not to my taste, but that's besides the point) - I doubt it had anything to do with the recording:

 

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/04 camélia jordana %26 baptiste trotignon - i'm a fool to want you.flac

 

The track you uploaded comes from this album? I like it, thanks

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 hours ago, Rexp said:

The track you uploaded comes from this album? I like it, thanks

 

Don't think its that album - the cover is different. Not really my cup of tea, but glad you like it. 

 

I listened to the tracks mentioned by @davide256. Nothing struck me with the choirs. Will try with headphones as well.

 

If its not the equipment, and not the recordings, it could also very well be that one's ears are more sensitive to certain frequencies? 

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Don't think its that album - the cover is different. Not really my cup of tea, but glad you like it. 

 

I listened to the tracks mentioned by @davide256. Nothing struck me with the choirs. Will try with headphones as well.

 

If its not the equipment, and not the recordings, it could also very well be that one's ears are more sensitive to certain frequencies? 

I only listened to  "Ready Player One" on Tidal, sounds horrible. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 minutes ago, Rexp said:

I only listened to  "Ready Player One" on Tidal, sounds horrible. 

 

I forget which is which, but 3 of the 4 tracks sounded like they had very little dynamic range. I ended just scrolling quickly to compare some passages. The choirs did not sound any different than the rest... 

[Rexp]

Here's two Herb Alpert albums on Tidal, one is digititus free: Both sound good on vinyl. 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 hours ago, Rexp said:

Here's two Herb Alpert albums on Tidal, one is digititus free: Both sound good on vinyl. 

 

 

 

"North on South St." sounds electronic, as opposed to Rise which sounds more "acoustic". I find the music on "North..." to be irritating, but that's just my personal preference, and I am not sure I would like it any better on vinyl even if the recording was improved... But this Tidal version is definitely unpleasant to my ears. I'm not sure I would qualify this as "digititus" per se... 

Here is the spectrum analysis of the first track of the second album (Jump Street). There's a lot going on !

 

 

I'd be curious to hear what a vinyl rip of that song sounds like and see if the spectrum is any different. 

[Confused]

There is something that I posted on another thread recently that I think might have some relevance here.  Note that I am not proposing this as the solution to either recordings or systems that might induce "digititus", but simply as a very non digital effect that might be a factor in play here, in some cases at least.

 

With a Devialet amplifier you can adjust volume, tone controls etc. from the remote.  The remote has a big dial, which is normally used simply for volume control.  The remote has a "tone" button, this scrolls through a menu of things you can adjust, so it runs through balance, bass, treble, (all then adjustable with the volume dial), then on to other options.  

 

Why is this relevant to "digititus"?  There was one time I was listening to a track which you might say was on the borderline of introducing "digititus", I pressed the "tone" button on the remote, which on first click takes you to the "balance" adjustment.  When the "balance" adjustment is selected, the amp has this trick that it switches to mono operation, just for the duration of the balance adjustment, I guess the idea is that the balance adjustment is more accurate or easier to do with a mono signal.  The interesting thing I noticed was that the very act of switching to mono, without any other adjustments, resulted in a much darker sound.  This is entirely repeatable with a wide range of music, hit the "tone" button, the amp switches to mono, and in many cases a much darker sound results.  This has always baffled me, and I had wondered if it was maybe some kind of psychoacoustic effect resulting from first reflection points or similar.  Also, this is not one of these subjective things that might be imagined, with some music the effect is quite pronounced.  Note that although I am referring to a "darker" sound here, the treble and presence range in the recording are still as prominent as they should be, and indeed these frequency ranges become clearer, sharper and cleaner.

 

Why this is relevant here is that with the very occasional tracks that I might encounter which are perhaps in the "digititus" inducing category, with a proportion of these, the very act of hitting the tone adjust button on the remote, which does nothing other than switch the system to mono mode, can then completely eliminate any hint of "digititus" in the sound.  No change is made to the recording, the playback chain or anything else, so I have to conclude that in these specific cases the effect cannot have anything to do with anything digital as such, but must be something else.

 

One explanation that was offered in the other thread where I posted about this is that this effect is related to "comb filtering".  I think there might be something in this.  That is I suspect that this is some kind of interaction between the directly received sound and the sound heard from first reflection points and similar.  It might be comb filtering, or possibly a similar related effect, here I am not sure.

 

Another slightly counterintuitive point is that I suspect that this effect is easier to hear or generate with a more accurate system.  So in other words, if the initial reproportion of the  offending "digititus" inducing frequencies, which I would say are typically in the presence range, rather than the true HF treble range, are very accurately reproduced, then it is easier for these comb fileting (or similar) effects to manifest themselves.

 

The above is something that interests me, and is also something I would personally categorise as "unfinished business".  That is I have not fully concluded what might be going on here, and indeed I have a few ideas of things I can try to further investigate this matter, and hopefully gain a better clarity as to what is going on.

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

There is something that I posted on another thread recently that I think might have some relevance here.  Note that I am not proposing this as the solution to either recordings or systems that might induce "digititus", but simply as a very non digital effect that might be a factor in play here, in some cases at least.

 

With a Devialet amplifier you can adjust volume, tone controls etc. from the remote.  The remote has a big dial, which is normally used simply for volume control.  The remote has a "tone" button, this scrolls through a menu of things you can adjust, so it runs through balance, bass, treble, (all then adjustable with the volume dial), then on to other options.  

 

Why is this relevant to "digititus"?  There was one time I was listening to a track which you might say was on the borderline of introducing "digititus", I pressed the "tone" button on the remote, which on first click takes you to the "balance" adjustment.  When the "balance" adjustment is selected, the amp has this trick that it switches to mono operation, just for the duration of the balance adjustment, I guess the idea is that the balance adjustment is more accurate or easier to do with a mono signal.  The interesting thing I noticed was that the very act of switching to mono, without any other adjustments, resulted in a much darker sound.  This is entirely repeatable with a wide range of music, hit the "tone" button, the amp switches to mono, and in many cases a much darker sound results.  This has always baffled me, and I had wondered if it was maybe some kind of psychoacoustic effect resulting from first reflection points or similar.  Also, this is not one of these subjective things that might be imagined, with some music the effect is quite pronounced.  Note that although I am referring to a "darker" sound here, the treble and presence range in the recording are still as prominent as they should be, and indeed these frequency ranges become clearer, sharper and cleaner.

 

Why this is relevant here is that with the very occasional tracks that I might encounter which are perhaps in the "digititus" inducing category, with a proportion of these, the very act of hitting the tone adjust button on the remote, which does nothing other than switch the system to mono mode, can then completely eliminate any hint of "digititus" in the sound.  No change is made to the recording, the playback chain or anything else, so I have to conclude that in these specific cases the effect cannot have anything to do with anything digital as such, but must be something else.

 

One explanation that was offered in the other thread where I posted about this is that this effect is related to "comb filtering".  I think there might be something in this.  That is I suspect that this is some kind of interaction between the directly received sound and the sound heard from first reflection points and similar.  It might be comb filtering, or possibly a similar related effect, here I am not sure.

 

Another slightly counterintuitive point is that I suspect that this effect is easier to hear or generate with a more accurate system.  So in other words, if the initial reproportion of the  offending "digititus" inducing frequencies, which I would say are typically in the presence range, rather than the true HF treble range, are very accurately reproduced, then it is easier for these comb fileting (or similar) effects to manifest themselves.

 

The above is something that interests me, and is also something I would personally categorise as "unfinished business".  That is I have not fully concluded what might be going on here, and indeed I have a few ideas of things I can try to further investigate this matter, and hopefully gain a better clarity as to what is going on.

Interesting, sounds like some frequencies cancelled out in mono which would mean they were out of phase, which is odd. I'm probably completely wrong though... 

[fas42]

 

2 hours ago, Confused said:

Note that although I am referring to a "darker" sound here, the treble and presence range in the recording are still as prominent as they should be, and indeed these frequency ranges become clearer, sharper and cleaner.
 

 

Th clue, to me, is your use of the words, "clearer, sharper and cleaner" - this is always the result when something is done that reduces the level of audible distortion, IME - and suggests that the mode change of the Devialet, altering its operating characteristics, is enough to improve its performance.

 

A thought that comes to mind, to test this, is to play some track which is already pure mono - does activating the tone adjust still give this change - or not?

[danadam]

On 3/27/2021 at 6:57 PM, Superdad said:

So here was the test/experiment (I don’t remember which of my friends brought it to our group or where he heard of it from; supposedly there was some “doctor” who had stumbled upon it as related to digital recording):

 

1) With no music playing, one person would hold their arms straight out to the side—making themselves into a giant “T”.

2) Another person would come up to the “T” man, put their hands on top of the outstretched arms—at the wrists—and try to push the arms down. Strong resistance would be felt.

3) An LP would be played—at just average volume—and about 30 seconds into it the above test would be repeated.

Sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology (courtesy of @pkane2001comment on another forum):

Quote

[...] a pseudoscience-based technique[1] in alternative medicine claimed to be able to diagnose illness or choose treatment by testing muscles for strength and weakness.

[...] A commonly known and very basic test is the arm-pull-down test, or "Delta test," where the patient resists as the practitioner exerts a downward force on an extended arm.

 

[Confused]

On 4/5/2021 at 1:55 PM, Rexp said:

Interesting, sounds like some frequencies cancelled out in mono which would mean they were out of phase, which is odd. I'm probably completely wrong though... 

I would agree that it is probably something along these lines.  Although I really am not sure of the exact mechanism that is in play here.  It is something I noticed quite a while ago, and had not thought much about since.  I think that when I get a bit of free time I will try a few experiments to see if I can add any clarity to the matter

[Confused]

On 4/5/2021 at 2:30 PM, fas42 said:

 

 

Th clue, to me, is your use of the words, "clearer, sharper and cleaner" - this is always the result when something is done that reduces the level of audible distortion, IME - and suggests that the mode change of the Devialet, altering its operating characteristics, is enough to improve its performance.

 

A thought that comes to mind, to test this, is to play some track which is already pure mono - does activating the tone adjust still give this change - or not?

I have never tried it with a mono track.  Easy enough to do and there might be something to learn here, so I will give this a go.  Also, you have given me an idea of something else I could try, to mimic the effect in a different way.

 

I am "away from my system" for a couple of days, but I will give this a try at the weekend and report back.

[Confused]

One point to add to my recent posts here.  It is not just myself that has commented on this effect, see link below:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/277519-fixing-stereo-phantom-center.html

 

(Note, credit for the above link should go to @Bill Brown, who posted the same on the thread I mentioned in an earlier post)

 

[fas42]

Okay, the diyaudio thread - one which I hadn't come across before - is specifically discussing one of the markers of competent sound - or, rather, the lack of such! 😉

 

The "phantom center" having "a darker tonal balance" is an easy indicator of distortion being too prominent, too audible. How it works is that the speaker drivers are the source of that distortion, as in, the way the distortion of the playback chain gets into the listening space; and this distortion is usually manifested by the speakers being "brighter", "more in your face". So if your attention is focused on something which is in the area of the speaker, you hear both the source sound, and the playback distortion, on top of each other. OTOH, the phantom center is a creation in your mind, and the attendant distortion is largely discarded - it's actually closer to the true sound of the recording, subjectively ... hence the variation across that span.

 

Fully competent SQ has no such differences between the centre, and the speaker sides - the soundstage is truly outside the speakers, at all times ... one way to think of it is, you have a phantom centre and a phantom left and a phantom right - there is nothing else that your mind can conjure up, 😄.

 

Which also means, that the darker tonal balance is in fact the true sound of the recording - so, if one has tilted the FR down to make it subjectively more pleasant, to deal with the subpar SQ, than one has to reverse that kludge, to 'normalise' the playback.

[Confused]

16 hours ago, fas42 said:

Okay, the diyaudio thread - one which I hadn't come across before - is specifically discussing one of the markers of competent sound - or, rather, the lack of such! 😉

 

You've posted on it! 🙂  

 

(Although to be fair, that was six years ago)

[Confused]

Re the diyaudio thread, one interesting thing is the paper that is linked from the first page, see link below:

 

http://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/FixingThePhantomCenter.pdf

 

I have not yet had time to study the above in any detail, but I did notice something that has given me another idea of something to try.

 

This is to listen with just one ear.  Sounds crazy, but it might be a method of observing the subjective influence of comb filtering effects or similar.  Is there something to be learnt from observing subjective changes in a system, say when flicking between mono and stereo reproduction, and then comparing the same one ear to two?  I am not sure, but I am intrigued enough to at least try it and see what might be observable.

 

I am now wondering how good my noise cancelling headphones are.  This might be an easy way of trialing experimental one ear listening, without actually sticking anything in your ear.  (I do not like earplugs or similar)

[fas42]

6 hours ago, Confused said:

You've posted on it! 🙂  

 

(Although to be fair, that was six years ago)

 

Call it a senior moment, okay ? 😅  ... So much under the bridge ... 🙂.

[fas42]

6 hours ago, Confused said:

I have not yet had time to study the above in any detail, but I did notice something that has given me another idea of something to try.

 

This is to listen with just one ear.  Sounds crazy, but it might be a method of observing the subjective influence of comb filtering effects or similar.  Is there something to be learnt from observing subjective changes in a system, say when flicking between mono and stereo reproduction, and then comparing the same one ear to two?  I am not sure, but I am intrigued enough to at least try it and see what might be observable.

 

Has never worked for me, 😉 .. there's a huge amount of blather out there, about this huge array of scieeentic things goin' on in ya ears ... none of which has ever made sense to me 🙂. Luckily, I was getting convincing SQ before I ever came across all the blubbering about phase effects, shape of cranium, combs and brushes - so I never worried about it 🙂. It's pretty simple, actually ... when the integrity of the playback hits its straps, part of the brain which does all the processing of 'natural' sounds fully switches on - and from then on your mind reorganises what it hears, and the illusion of the recording always makes sense. This is when the speakers truly become invisible - the brain can't locate them, no matter how you try listening, in order to be able to point to them.