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Audio "Digititus" inducing music?


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9 hours ago, davide256 said:

My definition of audio digititus

     a unique sensation from digital music in the treble region usually associated with irritation from the piece played and listening fatigue even with

    favorite pieces. A subtle "thats not right" (see Galaxy Quest for context) feeling during playback that can cause one to flee to other pieces

 

I am curious if others have observed as I have that particular pieces, recordings excite audio digititus in their system. When I first became a CA/AS

member, it was the bane of much of what I played. Over the years following member experiments and postings have really helped me to whittle it down.

 

Music by "The Cranberries" used to be not just irritating but actually painful to listen to; with member recommended server and DDC improvements,

now its just bright.

 

Where I perceive digititus remaining  now in my system is mass women's choir and violins, in movie soundtracks like Avatar, Ready Player One. Its like the

fundamental frequencies are right but the harmonics are distorted/off pitch. I bought the vinyl versions of both, no like issues there.

 

Anyone else want to name music that creates this love/hate relationship for them?

 

If you were to do a decent vinyl rip of Avatar it would sound fine so its a mastering problem, very common unfortunately. 

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31 minutes ago, fas42 said:

An endemic problem with digital playback - not the recording side of it! Certain recordings, with their particular mastering style, will provoke this - but it's not the fault of the recording.

 

The real question is,

 

Audio "Digititus" inducing systems?

You're the only person on this forum that believes this. I guess it makes you special. 

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9 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

In my experience, listening fatigue is a result of the system, not the recording. 

 

So I would tend to agree with Frank on this (!) BUT I don't agree with his assessment that this is a caracteristic of most "high end" systems.

I do agree that you can get really good sound from a relatively modest system.

 

At the end of the day, price is not as relevant as we think (with the exception, possibly, of speakers). I like this analysis:

 

https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/the-law-of-diminishing-returns-another-unproven-hi-fi-maxim/

 

Regardless, if you are experiencing 'audio digititus" it is a good indication that something has to be fixed. When you stop experiencing it, upgraditis is also cured 😁 or at least, you become very cautious about making any changes! 

Have you done any needle drops? Would you concede that if your rip sounded the same as the vinyl, then your digital hardware is not responsible for digititus? 

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49 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Actually, it can be due to both causes.😉

 Let's not forget that Vinyl was already a pretty mature medium, often using vacuum tube electronics, even for cutting the vinyl, and not heaps of early type slew rate limited opamps. 

You're quoting @hopkinsnot me.. 

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17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Hmmm ... there has been a pretty gung ho distaste for 'digital' LPs, over the years. That is, recordings made for the digital age, and transferred to vinyl bring with them the qualities that upset a lot of people - so, putting the data into a physical groove is no guarantee of moderating the issues that make people dislike certain recordings.

Nope, some of my favourite records are Digitally recorded. 

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40 minutes ago, davide256 said:

@Rexp Ouch! this one wasn't very good in the treble, perhaps badly remastered?

 

much preferred sampling the Serafin recording on Qobuz, better dynamic range, treble clarity, original performance date and CD release hard to determine but probably analog

 

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Jon-Vickers-Leonie-Rysanek-Tito-Gobbi-Rome-Opera-Orchestra-And-Chorus-Tullio-Serafin-/release/8902956

 

Sampled the Levine performance (1978) its nice in CD rate, a little recessed in treble, has to be analog originally

 

https://www.discogs.com/Verdi-Plácido-Domingo-Renata-Scotto-Sherrill-Milnes-National-Philharmonic-Orchestra-James-Levine-Ot/release/10771958

 

Did find this 1987 live performance with Mehta,  its good for treble and dynamics at CD rate, Qobuz has it mis-tagged for someone named Kaludi Kaludov

 

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14014/

 

enjoying this  now, will give it  a play straight through

Yeah I was recommending the vinyl, ie what you asked for..

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15 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Can you share a specific track which you find particularly irritating ? I would be curious to listen to one.

 

I've had a similar experience at someone's house where some tracks sounded particularly harsh (in the highs as well), but were fine when I played them in my system. This did not happen with all tracks that day... The explanation from this person was that his system was more transparent... Could be ! I think on that day there was something wrong with his (I'd heard it sound better) - and it may not have had to do with the digital side of things. 

 

Here's a track that was quite irritating (not to my taste, but that's besides the point) - I doubt it had anything to do with the recording:

 

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/04 camélia jordana %26 baptiste trotignon - i'm a fool to want you.flac

 

The track you uploaded comes from this album? I like it, thanks

 

Screenshot_20210330_081152.jpg

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1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Don't think its that album - the cover is different. Not really my cup of tea, but glad you like it. 

 

I listened to the tracks mentioned by @davide256. Nothing struck me with the choirs. Will try with headphones as well.

 

If its not the equipment, and not the recordings, it could also very well be that one's ears are more sensitive to certain frequencies? 

I only listened to  "Ready Player One" on Tidal, sounds horrible. 

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1 hour ago, Confused said:

There is something that I posted on another thread recently that I think might have some relevance here.  Note that I am not proposing this as the solution to either recordings or systems that might induce "digititus", but simply as a very non digital effect that might be a factor in play here, in some cases at least.

 

With a Devialet amplifier you can adjust volume, tone controls etc. from the remote.  The remote has a big dial, which is normally used simply for volume control.  The remote has a "tone" button, this scrolls through a menu of things you can adjust, so it runs through balance, bass, treble, (all then adjustable with the volume dial), then on to other options.  

 

Why is this relevant to "digititus"?  There was one time I was listening to a track which you might say was on the borderline of introducing "digititus", I pressed the "tone" button on the remote, which on first click takes you to the "balance" adjustment.  When the "balance" adjustment is selected, the amp has this trick that it switches to mono operation, just for the duration of the balance adjustment, I guess the idea is that the balance adjustment is more accurate or easier to do with a mono signal.  The interesting thing I noticed was that the very act of switching to mono, without any other adjustments, resulted in a much darker sound.  This is entirely repeatable with a wide range of music, hit the "tone" button, the amp switches to mono, and in many cases a much darker sound results.  This has always baffled me, and I had wondered if it was maybe some kind of psychoacoustic effect resulting from first reflection points or similar.  Also, this is not one of these subjective things that might be imagined, with some music the effect is quite pronounced.  Note that although I am referring to a "darker" sound here, the treble and presence range in the recording are still as prominent as they should be, and indeed these frequency ranges become clearer, sharper and cleaner.

 

Why this is relevant here is that with the very occasional tracks that I might encounter which are perhaps in the "digititus" inducing category, with a proportion of these, the very act of hitting the tone adjust button on the remote, which does nothing other than switch the system to mono mode, can then completely eliminate any hint of "digititus" in the sound.  No change is made to the recording, the playback chain or anything else, so I have to conclude that in these specific cases the effect cannot have anything to do with anything digital as such, but must be something else.

 

One explanation that was offered in the other thread where I posted about this is that this effect is related to "comb filtering".  I think there might be something in this.  That is I suspect that this is some kind of interaction between the directly received sound and the sound heard from first reflection points and similar.  It might be comb filtering, or possibly a similar related effect, here I am not sure.

 

Another slightly counterintuitive point is that I suspect that this effect is easier to hear or generate with a more accurate system.  So in other words, if the initial reproportion of the  offending "digititus" inducing frequencies, which I would say are typically in the presence range, rather than the true HF treble range, are very accurately reproduced, then it is easier for these comb fileting (or similar) effects to manifest themselves.

 

The above is something that interests me, and is also something I would personally categorise as "unfinished business".  That is I have not fully concluded what might be going on here, and indeed I have a few ideas of things I can try to further investigate this matter, and hopefully gain a better clarity as to what is going on.

Interesting, sounds like some frequencies cancelled out in mono which would mean they were out of phase, which is odd. I'm probably completely wrong though... 

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15 hours ago, Confused said:

An interesting comparison.  I definitely preferred the JCF to the Apollo, although to me the difference is not quite as stark as you seem to have observed.

Ha, I preferred the Apollo. At least I do like PCM recordings, some die hard analogue fans can only bare DSD. 

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33 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

 

The Apollo 'rounds' off the sound - to a guitarist, the JCF captures what he hears when playing the guitar ... if you look at the comments on the YT page, most preferred the JCF, because the sense of the guitar tone is better defined.

At least you can fix it with tweaking, you are so fortunate. 

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2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

We all do tweaking - but I use a very different approach from many; as I am reminded regularly by posters, 🤣.

 

The hardest thing to convey is the mindset, I've found - and this makes it difficult for other people to understand the approach.

 

Which is:

 

Step 1: The system I, or anyone who has a half decent audio rig, am looking at in the listening area is inherently capable of delivering exceptional SQ.

 

Step 2: The only thing stopping that happening are small flaws in the setup, which are severe bottlenecks to that quality being audible.

 

Step 3: "Bad" recordings are your best friend ... they are telling you in the clearest way possible that firstly, you do have a significant problem; and secondly, they will guide you to making the right moves to rectify the playback chain; removing the bottlenecks, one by one.

 

Most audiophiles choke and splutter at what I say in some or all of these steps - as do you, 😉. But they are what work - I am "fortunate", because I believe in those steps ... okay?

If, as you believe, the Apollo doesn't capture the correct tone of the guitar, it will be a bad recording. Will that bad recording be saveable through your rig tweaking? 

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8 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Yes. The recording is what it is, and everything from prior to, say, 1950 had major limitations in its technical quality. How much the Apollo differs from the other is very minor compared to that; and those recordings pre-1950 are certainly 'saveable'.

 

The problem is using the word "bad" - no recording can ever be perfect, so what counts is whether whatever has been captured can be experienced as pleasing, satisfying in a listening session. If one has no reference to "how good" the actual event was, then why fuss about what you do have - of course, as soon as you have two versions, two recordings, of an event then there is every likelihood that one is better than the other. For you. And that's fine  - as far as I'm concerned.

If, as you say, the Apollo version wouldn't be 'pleasing' to a Guitarist, would your rig tweaking fix it? 

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