Synergistic Research SR Orange Fuse snake oil ?

[botrytis]

40 minutes ago, Kens said:

I have had my purple fuse for about 2 months and YES I did get a nice bump in performance much like when I went to the orange. 

 

I will wait for proof. If it makes a difference, it should be able to be measured. If not, maybe your ears filled in the difference...

[skyline]

7 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

 

DBT or sighted listening? Sighted is suspect because of 'EXPECTATION BIAS'.

 

Some of these fuses are so colored, the real question is do you like them in the long run. 

 

I know audiophiles who have gone back to stock fuses because they preferred them.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, skyline said:

 

Some of these fuses are so colored, the real question is do you like them in the long run. 

 

I know audiophiles who have gone back to stock fuses because they preferred them.

No, the question is, do they actually make a measurable difference? If not, why spend the money?

 

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, skyline said:

 

Some of these fuses are so colored, the real question is do you like them in the long run. 

 

I know audiophiles who have gone back to stock fuses because they preferred them.

 

What a non-standard fuse can do is alter the types and levels of electrical noise that the components see - depending upon the competence of the audio engineering of those components, this will cause a subjective audible difference to the sound. Whether anyone has worked out a method of precisely measuring this is irrelevant; if you can hear it, then the effect is real.

 

The poor ability of most audio chains to reject interference is the reason that there is so much "madness" in the game; people will keep fiddling with 'snake oil' until this is finally properly understood. We're still in the world of witch doctors who use various plants to get rid of evil spirits in sick people; then, the medical world worked out that these plants had compounds that actually had beneficial properties - that is, some sanity descends into the situation .

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

What a non-standard fuse can do is alter the types and levels of electrical noise that the components see - depending upon the competence of the audio engineering of those components, this will cause a subjective audible difference to the sound. Whether anyone has worked out a method of precisely measuring this is irrelevant; if you can hear it, then the effect is real.

 

The poor ability of most audio chains to reject interference is the reason that there is so much "madness" in the game; people will keep fiddling with 'snake oil' until this is finally properly understood. We're still in the world of witch doctors who use various plants to get rid of evil spirits in sick people; then, the medical world worked out that these plants had compounds that actually had beneficial properties - that is, some sanity descends into the situation .

 

NONSENSE. It is a fusible wire is all. Nothing magical or special about them.

 

Adding mumbo jumbo to a description doesn't make it real .

 

If you believe it Frank, I have some Shun Mook discs to send you. :D

[fas42]

29 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

NONSENSE. It is a fusible wire is all. Nothing magical or special about them.

 

Adding mumbo jumbo to a description doesn't make it real .

 

 

Inside the "audiophile fuse"? What if the actual fusible link is surrounded by materials which have various electrical behaviours, say, at RF frequencies?

 

There is no magic. But there are a whole swath of parasitic behaviours which are usually not accounted for; IME, once a system gets to a certain level of resolution it becomes trivially easy to hear how the slightest misadjustment, somewhere, impacts the SQ ...

[skyline]

On 2/28/2022 at 6:22 PM, fas42 said:

 

What a non-standard fuse can do is alter the types and levels of electrical noise that the components see - depending upon the competence of the audio engineering of those components, this will cause a subjective audible difference to the sound. Whether anyone has worked out a method of precisely measuring this is irrelevant; if you can hear it, then the effect is real.

 

The audiophile fuses must be getting rid of noise, because many of them sound too lean.

 

In my experience, it's like cooking cables. At first it sounds spectacular, then you realize your system sounds too lean without the organic noise.

 

[Archimago]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:17 PM, fas42 said:

Inside the "audiophile fuse"? What if the actual fusible link is surrounded by materials which have various electrical behaviours, say, at RF frequencies?

...

 

Even if the surrounding material shields from RF across the 20-40mm fuse length, what's that going to do to change sound quality to a significant degree?

 

We can imagine all kinds of things being "possible". And companies like Synergistic want us to think that it might be (so we send over $200). But seriously, how "probable" is that to make an effect on the power supply's performance - much less eventually a sound difference from your amp or DAC or whatever?

 

IMO essentially ZERO.

 

Show me something. Anything other than vague testimonies (or snake oil salesmen talk like Ted Denney) that the sound output is different or there is any electrical difference something like the Orange/Blue/Purple "UEF" fuse makes.

 

(BTW: I've never heard a significant difference with the Synergistic stuff... Even when attending Ted Denney's presentation at an audio show.)

[botrytis]

20 minutes ago, Archimago said:

 

Even if the surrounding material shields from RF across the 20-40mm fuse length, what's that going to do to change sound quality to a significant degree?

 

We can imagine all kinds of things being "possible". And companies like Synergistic want us to think that it might be (so we send over $200). But seriously, how "probable" is that to make an effect on the power supply's performance - much less eventually a sound difference from your amp or DAC or whatever?

 

IMO essentially ZERO.

 

Show me something. Anything other than vague testimonies (or snake oil salesmen talk like Ted Denney) that the sound output is different or there is any electrical difference something like the Orange/Blue/Purple "UEF" fuse makes.

 

(BTW: I've never heard a significant difference with the Synergistic stuff... Even when attending Ted Denney's presentation at an audio show.)

 

I remember at one AXPONA, one of the manufacturers was talking about these 'Magical rocks' for CD players and it made his sound so much better. So, he was showing what they do. Literally, 3 rocks with some foam glued onto them. He had them in a triangle, close together, on top of his CD player. He said, 'Wait' and he moved them apart. The other audiophiles were like, 'OH, that is amazing!' I was like WTF? My wife had the same reaction. Expectation bias is big in sales.

 

Oh, the rocks were 500 USD for 3 of them....

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

We can imagine all kinds of things being "possible". And companies like Synergistic want us to think that it might be (so we send over $200). But seriously, how "probable" is that to make an effect on the power supply's performance - much less eventually a sound difference from your amp or DAC or whatever?

 

 

I've been dealing for years with stuff "that shouldn't matter!!" - so, I never assert that something can't affect the SQ, just because that seems a reasonable stance. As I've said many times, digital playback is extremely sensitive to electrical noise; and that noise can originate from the most headscratching sources - it's a journey to excise every last ounce of this crap; and people who sell 'snake oil' have made a mint over the years from producing stuff that can impact this behaviour.

[botrytis]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I've been dealing for years with stuff "that shouldn't matter!!" - so, I never assert that something can't affect the SQ, just because that seems a reasonable stance. As I've said many times, digital playback is extremely sensitive to electrical noise; and that noise can originate from the most headscratching sources - it's a journey to excise every last ounce of this crap; and people who sell 'snake oil' have made a mint over the years from producing stuff that can impact this behaviour.

You have been dealing with things for years yet you still don't understand basic science and engineering.

 

Also, your expectation bias is just like WOW!

[dericchan1]

My general rule of thumb for audio myths and tweaks is if some people claim they could hear it, some people claim not, that automatically means its something you can live without, might as well save up for other things that matters!!

[fas42]

3 hours ago, botrytis said:

You have been dealing with things for years yet you still don't understand basic science and engineering.

 

Also, your expectation bias is just like WOW!

 

Which is exactly why so many audio systems are so lacklustre - they have been designed using just "basic science and engineering" - the cheap ones and the expensive ones. What you get with the latter is plenty of bling, and "expensive sounding" distortion - which may be enough to satisfy the buyer .

 

What is coming through is that you can't conceive that electrical noise may impact subjective SQ - part of the "if no-one measures it, then it doesn't exist" universe ...

[botrytis]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Which is exactly why so many audio systems are so lacklustre - they have been designed using just "basic science and engineering" - the cheap ones and the expensive ones. What you get with the latter is plenty of bling, and "expensive sounding" distortion - which may be enough to satisfy the buyer .

 

What is coming through is that you can't conceive that electrical noise may impact subjective SQ - part of the "if no-one measures it, then it doesn't exist" universe ...

 

Ever hear the expression, ' A fool and his money are often parted'?  Imaginary noise can't be measured.

 

As I said many times, one needs to divorce what we hear from what is actually played. Oft times they are different things because our brain does fill in nuances, etc. that we have heard before. That is why many salespeople, will tell you what you will hear, play the song, repeat the same thing about what you will hear, play it again and then a third time. That is expectation bias being used and is the most common sales process in the audio business. The term 'Snake Oil Salesman' comes from the classic medicine show men, who would basically sell alcohol or even dangerous products as a 'cure all'. An example would be, in medicine, chelated silver to treat Covid. Doesn't work and oft times turns people blue and is eventually toxic.

 

I am not, as you say, 'doesn't exist' group. The thing is our senses are setup for specific things, like blue light with our sight, 500-3K for our hearing, etc. Anything outside of that, is a crap shoot. As we get older our senses get tend to get de-sensitized so our hearing, eyesight, taste, etc. get less sensitive. Women have better senses than men, and that is a proven fact. 

 

Frank, you like to spout flowery platitudes but there is no science or reality in that. That is the issue. Music reproduction is not something that is 'magically' special so it can divorce from the laws of science. This is the way you treat it. I do not. I am trained as a scientist, so I tend to veer on the objective side as it is hard to prove a negative. Data is how I roll.

 

Test your ideas with a properly DBT, then come back to me. I will be waiting.

 

What you believe you hear (I do think you believe it) and what is actually played are two different but subtle things.

[dericchan1]

Synergistic Research - are they the same company that makes $399 cable lifters that's not made of gold and all it does apparently is to lift up your cables? (I have been using my kid's mega blocks to do exactly that). I thought I read a review somewhere the reviewer claimed it provided Night and Day improvement to his system he would not remove from his system

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, botrytis said:

Women have better senses than men, and that is a proven fact. 

Evidenced by the fact that I can sleep through my wife’s snoring but mine keeps her up all night. 

[fas42]

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Ever hear the expression, ' A fool and his money are often parted'?  Imaginary noise can't be measured.

 

The noise is there. This was something I spent months and months trying to eliminate over 3 decades ago, and which made me give up audio entirely for nearly a decade - the frustration of not understanding what to do, to fix it, was enough to undermine my interest; for that period, it was just another kitchen radio, not to be taken seriously.

 

Others who are also bugged will spend money, to try and get an answer - if they want to spend "silly" money, that's up to them; if they chance on a good combo of tricks that really reduce the noise, then they come out winners ...

 

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

As I said many times, one needs to divorce what we hear from what is actually played. Oft times they are different things because our brain does fill in nuances, etc. that we have heard before. That is why many salespeople, will tell you what you will hear, play the song, repeat the same thing about what you will hear, play it again and then a third time. That is expectation bias being used and is the most common sales process in the audio business. The term 'Snake Oil Salesman' comes from the classic medicine show men, who would basically sell alcohol or even dangerous products as a 'cure all'. An example would be, in medicine, chelated silver to treat Covid. Doesn't work and oft times turns people blue and is eventually toxic.

 

You have obviously never experienced a rig where you do something quite 'ridiculous', and the SQ changes markedly. Most setups have plenty of 'instability' points throughout them - an analogy is the classic broom standing on its handle end equilibrium; the slightest puff of wind sends the broom crashing to the floor ... unfortunately, that's where the current state of knowledge of audio is at.

 

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

I am not, as you say, 'doesn't exist' group. The thing is our senses are setup for specific things, like blue light with our sight, 500-3K for our hearing, etc. Anything outside of that, is a crap shoot. As we get older our senses get tend to get de-sensitized so our hearing, eyesight, taste, etc. get less sensitive. Women have better senses than men, and that is a proven fact. 

 

As I've said a thousand times, anyone who has no trouble, whatsoever, in picking whether music coming from an unseen source is real, or merely hifi, has sensitive enough hearing ...

 

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Frank, you like to spout flowery platitudes but there is no science or reality in that. That is the issue. Music reproduction is not something that is 'magically' special so it can divorce from the laws of science. This is the way you treat it. I do not. I am trained as a scientist, so I tend to veer on the objective side as it is hard to prove a negative. Data is how I roll.

 

Oh, most certainly science has everything to do with it ... if you happen to work in a such a field where precision is critical, you will have to go extreme measures to ensure accuracy in the results - has it never dawned on you that there are audio tweaks which use equipment designed to eliminate vibration from some, scientific, procedure.

 

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Test your ideas with a properly DBT, then come back to me. I will be waiting.

 

What you believe you hear (I do think you believe it) and what is actually played are two different but subtle things.

 

Which is always the Get Of Jail Free card. There have been a number of these done over the year, by individuals, which are then either blown over by the windmilling arms of those who demand that those outcomes must be refuted, or, completely ignored. A combination of these methods gets the job done, of burying that which is too uncomfortable ... .

[fas42]

6 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Synergistic Research - are they the same company that makes $399 cable lifters that's not made of gold and all it does apparently is to lift up your cables? (I have been using my kid's mega blocks to do exactly that). I thought I read a review somewhere the reviewer claimed it provided Night and Day improvement to his system he would not remove from his system

 

The cable lifting tweak is merely a means of reducing vibration, or static noise generation, which impacts sub-optimal audio gear. Unfortunately, nearly everything you buy fits into that category. Do the tweaking on the cheap, by using everyday household materials, to get the same result.

[botrytis]

26 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The noise is there. This was something I spent months and months trying to eliminate over 3 decades ago, and which made me give up audio entirely for nearly a decade - the frustration of not understanding what to do, to fix it, was enough to undermine my interest; for that period, it was just another kitchen radio, not to be taken seriously.

 

Others who are also bugged will spend money, to try and get an answer - if they want to spend "silly" money, that's up to them; if they chance on a good combo of tricks that really reduce the noise, then they come out winners ...

 

 

You have obviously never experienced a rig where you do something quite 'ridiculous', and the SQ changes markedly. Most setups have plenty of 'instability' points throughout them - an analogy is the classic broom standing on its handle end equilibrium; the slightest puff of wind sends the broom crashing to the floor ... unfortunately, that's where the current state of knowledge of audio is at.

 

 

As I've said a thousand times, anyone who has no trouble, whatsoever, in picking whether music coming from an unseen source is real, or merely hifi, has sensitive enough hearing ...

 

 

Oh, most certainly science has everything to do with it ... if you happen to work in a such a field where precision is critical, you will have to go extreme measures to ensure accuracy in the results - has it never dawned on you that there are audio tweaks which use equipment designed to eliminate vibration from some, scientific, procedure.

 

 

Which is always the Get Of Jail Free card. There have been a number of these done over the year, by individuals, which are then either blown over by the windmilling arms of those who demand that those outcomes must be refuted, or, completely ignored. A combination of these methods gets the job done, of burying that which is too uncomfortable ... .

If you can't measure it, is it really there? It is obvious you believe it to be, but measurements say otherwise.

 

Also, music is not something special. I have worked with digital data since 1984. Yes. That long. I worked on one of the very first computer controlled HPLC's. So, don't tell me about noise. My last GC-MS had larger magnets than even large speaker electromagnets (like the ones in Focal large speakers). If the noise was bad, one could not detect below PPM levels. If there was as much noise, as you say, the data would be corrupt and that doesn't happen.

 

As I said, you believe there is noise so you hear it. Our brains are amazing that way.

 

Sorry Frank, you are just an audiophile that believes snake oil salesmen

 

[dericchan1]

27 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The cable lifting tweak is merely a means of reducing vibration, or static noise generation, which impacts sub-optimal audio gear. Unfortunately, nearly everything you buy fits into that category. Do the tweaking on the cheap, by using everyday household materials, to get the same result.

I get that cable lifting is meant for lifting the cable up especially if you have a thick carpet floor. What I don't understand is how a SR cable lifter is 100 times more expensive to make than anything that otherwise does the same thing - lift the cables up, AND how does these SR cable lifter making NIGHT and DAY improvements over using something else to lift up the cables, as suggested by the reviewer

[dericchan1]

I can appreciate there can be electrical noise induced in the audio chain, or audio devices but it makes no sense to me how a fuse can actually address electrical noise. 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

If you can't measure it, is it really there? It is obvious you believe it to be, but measurements say otherwise.

 

See, you've just admitted that you are part of "if no-one measures it, then it doesn't exist" universe - this can be also phrased, "the anomaly has to come to me, rather than that I have to find the anomaly" - if what you measure doesn't show anything, then everything's OK, in your world ...

 

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

Also, music is not something special. I have worked with digital data since 1984. Yes. That long. I worked on one of the very first computer controlled HPLC's. So, don't tell me about noise. My last GC-MS had larger magnets than even large speaker electromagnets (like the ones in Focal large speakers). If the noise was bad, one could not detect below PPM levels. If there was as much noise, as you say, the data would be corrupt and that doesn't happen.

 

We're talking analogue, not digital. And what the noise does is create 'digititus' - via the magic of We Have To Find The Problem thinking, jitter was brought forth as the villain. And now no matter what the actual real cause for subpar SQ is, "jitter" is the evil that lurks within,  ... ummm, no ...

 

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

 

As I said, you believe there is noise so you hear it. Our brains are amazing that way.

 

Sorry Frank, you are just an audiophile that believes snake oil salesmen

 

 

You're trying desperately to put me in a box, aren't you? Which will make those slight seeds of doubt lurking in the back of your mind vanish, hmmm. The sad outcome of all this is that the audio world grinds on, producing gear which outputs substandard SQ, and the rest of the world couldn't give a f#*k about audiophile nonsense, because it's a terrible ROI.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, dericchan1 said:

I get that cable lifting is meant for lifting the cable up especially if you have a thick carpet floor. What I don't understand is how a SR cable lifter is 100 times more expensive to make than anything that otherwise does the same thing - lift the cables up, AND how does these SR cable lifter making NIGHT and DAY improvements over using something else to lift up the cables, as suggested by the reviewer

 

Because much of the first world believes in the glory of money ... as in, it is scientifically impossible for something that costs 100 times as much to not be superior in All The Important Ways - you know, the same reason why people buy Porsches, .

 

People need to believe in fancy toys, and that sums it up pretty well, .

[fas42]

1 hour ago, dericchan1 said:

I can appreciate there can be electrical noise induced in the audio chain, or audio devices but it makes no sense to me how a fuse can actually address electrical noise. 

 

As said before, exactly how materials are used in the fuse can make the difference. In a world where Bigness is everything, it doesn't make sense for many that the tinier something is, the more effective it can be. Well, in the world of very high frequency electrical signals, the tiniest is king.

[fas42]

Overall, the general failure of audio systems to deliver competent SQ has been the result of poor quality investigation of all the factors that can matter. This remains to this day, and the comments and reactions here indicate that this will continue, indefinitely.