Grateful Dead - the Most Overrated Band Ever?

[sphinxsix]

Maybe the question I asked (frankly this wasn't a question but let's say a suggestion) on the 'Eric Clapton' thread actually deserves a separate thread. I expect the discussion may be quite hot.

 

Repeating the essence of my post:

 

When I was a kid and I had only possibility of reading about Grateful Dead (they didn't play their music on the radio where I lived, in general the band has always been much more popular in the US) - I imagined, this must have been the greatest band of all time. Getting their first LP 'Terrapin Station' was the biggest disappointment in music in my life. The music was just bad and utterly boring. I still tend to think that Grateful Dead was actually a bad, boring and probably most overrated band ever. Many claim they were best while playing live (allmusic on 'Terrapin Station': "The theory is that the band's momentum is best experienced during the ebb and flow of a live performance rather than the somewhat clinical tedium of a recording studio.") but maybe their audience was simply usually too high to notice that apart from their ability to create a specific kind of connection with their audience they were in fact a bad, boring half amateur band..

 

I guess some are gonna hate me for this 

 

Let's stay relaxed..

 

 

[sphinxsix]

2 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

The people that followed them around in the 80s had some of the best LSD available in the U.S. (I'm told 🙂 )

 

Think I can understand deadheads in this regard 

 

2 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Oh, and they had an MTV hit.

 

Which was their hit?

 

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Most overrated of all time? Clearly not.

 

Who was more overrated than them then in your opinion, if I may ask?

 

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Having that kind of long running relationship with your audience - especially not a small audience - counts for a lot.

 

There are more bands like this, even in my home country, as it happens I don't like any of them, for me it's a kind of 'fireside' aspect @Jud was talking about:

 

45 minutes ago, Jud said:

If you approach them as friends around the fireside playing for fun on a cold and lonely evening, I think it helps get into the proper frame of mind.

 

2 hours ago, firedog said:

As a big Jazz fan, I find the Dead's improv-jamming a bit second rate.

 

Same here, for me it's a kind of improvisation which when I hear it I think 'I could play that!' and believe me - it's not a good thing! 

 

[sphinxsix]

21 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

 

 

Seems I was right - I could play this but I'd assume the average age of a listener would be 6, maybe 7..

(anyway IMO advertising joints to 6-7 yo kids isn't a good idea )

 

[sphinxsix]

47 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

May I humbly recommend a wee documentary?

 

A risky thing - after seeing 'Billie Eilish - the World is a Little Blurry' doc couple of days ago I had come to the conclusion (not my music, I hate such sound, anyway read on..) that she's more talented than Clapton and the Dead taken together - I really don't think I am ready to change my mind 

(but I'll give again after many years at least a quick listen to both albums mentioned by you and Jud which are widely regarded as the deadest Dead..).

 

Undeadly

Sphinxsix 

 

[sphinxsix]

 

1 hour ago, NOMBEDES said:

I never got the Dead.

 

 

I not only don't get the Dead but I also don't get how can anyone get them..

Trying to understand and for now the 'fireside theory' seems to me the most convincing one to me 

 

1 hour ago, NOMBEDES said:

So I don't see a point to the OP's Post.

 

1 hour ago, NOMBEDES said:

I mean you could make any "I don't think X (Clapton) is that great.......or the Y (Dead) is overrated" statement and get clicks.

 

The solution to your problem is pretty simple, my friend, just don't click on this thread 

 

[sphinxsix]

16 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

One of few recordings that sounds better on MQA. 

 

If you're suggesting that their music was the music of the future (or of the future formats) - I'm not buying that 

 

[sphinxsix]

I've just checked out for the first time in years 'Ripple' and a handful of other songs from 'American Beauty'. The first reflection - I'm not a fan of country music at all, one of the things that turns me off in GD are its elements in what they did. For me it's - either we are rockers or cowboys. 

 

That is unless of course we are Leningrad Cowboys..

 

 

I also find the idea of 'acid cowboys' slightly weird..

[sphinxsix]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

18 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

Who was more overrated than them then in your opinion, if I may ask?

A couple off the top of my head from the same era: The Moody Blues, Love.

 

None of them IMO had a cult following similar to GD. That was exactly the reason why I chose GD as IMO most overrated one, of course beside my attitude to their music which in its essence I had described above.

 

[sphinxsix]

 

17 hours ago, Priaptor said:

Now I will say this about the Dead and for those of you who aren't old enough to understand what it was like when you were at a party or concert with air filled with Dead tunes (among other things), it was much more than just the music. It literally was what we referred to as A SCENE and few bands elicited that to their audiences and listeners the way the Dead did. 

 

Ok, I can understand that, I happened to witness such phenomena here in Europe where GD has never been as popular as in the US, I guess. Never been a part of such let's say 'fan club' though, BTW never been a member of a proper fan club as well.

 

3 hours ago, Priaptor said:

I can make a strong case that The Dead (and they are NOT one of my top or even close to one of my favorites from that era) had as much if not more of an influence on the same generation as Dylan did. 

 

Do you really think so.? Do you also think that the artistic value of their lyrics can be compared in any way with Dylan's.?

 

3 hours ago, firedog said:

The Dead have a dedicated very large following. I wouldn't call it a cult. There are just too many of them and many of them are just serious fans, not cultists.

 

I didn't mean 'cult' in religious sense, I meant it in a sense in which 'cult' can be called 'Pulp Fiction' or Martens shoes. IMO they are absolutely cult band - huge, devoted following, some legend or myth surrounding the band etc..

 

2 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

Expensive audio cables are snake oil.

 

 !

 

[sphinxsix]

8 minutes ago, Mayfair said:

Robert Hunter (lyricist) - Wikipedia

 

Wiki: "Upon his death, Rolling Stone described him as "one of rock's most ambitious and dazzling lyricists".

 

C'mon, everyone is great upon one's death but not everyone gets Nobel Prize while being alive!

 

But seriously - I've never been into GD.. errr.. their lyrycist's lyrics, hence can't discuss them. 

IMO the only one who could potentially compete with Dylan was Leonard Cohen, YMMV.

 

[sphinxsix]

3 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

 

"With cow dung being the preferred habitat of Psilocybe cubensis, its circumtropical distribution is largely encouraged, if not caused, by the worldwide cattle ranching industry." Therefore, cowboys and girls.

 

Furthermore,   https://peyotecowboy.net/

 

additionally...

 

 

 

In the Morenos Mountains campesinos are planting their fields
While the ghost of Zapata rides a horse that can still outrun the wheel
There, free in the sky high above, nearly clear out of sight
It's the Free Mexican Air Force flyin' tonight

In the City of Angels, a cowboy is cooling his heels
Remembering that God gave us herbs and the fruits of the fields
But a criminal law that makes outlaws of those seeking light
Made the Free Mexican Air Force -- Mescalito riding his white horse --
Yeah, the Free Mexican Air Force is flyin' tonight!
Flying so high - yi - hiyeeeee! ...

How strange that an innocent herb causes money to burn
They'll jail you or kill you for making those rich fat cats squirm
They're the fools who make rules with no difference between wrong or right
That's why the Free Mexican Air Force is flyin' tonight

Uncle Sam in his misery put a nix on the fields of Guerrero
Sayin', "Shoot down all gringos and wetbacks who dare wear sombreros!"
Either run for your life, surrender, or stand up and fight --
Or join the Free Mexican Air Force -- Mescalito riding his white horse --
Yeah, the Free Mexican Air Force is flying tonight!
Flying so high - yi - hiyeeeee! ...

(instrumental bridge)

It is not marijuana destroying the minds of the young
But confusion continued for power and greed in all forms
Well, the borders of evil will fall to the smugglers of light!
We're the Free Mexican Air Force and we're flyin' tonight!

In San Antonio, they tell me that power and money are one
They can buy us or sell you to keep you afraid, on the run
But no one can stop us! My vision is clearly in sight!
And the Free Mexican Air Force -- Mescalito riding his white horse --
Yeah, the Free Mexican Air Force is flyin' tonight!
Flying so high - yi - hiyeeeee! ...

Some were smoking colitas while other were loading their guns
Blowing smoke from their six-shooters, spinning their barrels for fun
Contrabandistas, banditos alike --
We're the Free Mexican Air Force and we're flyin' tonight!

High in the hills we are harvesting sweet sensimillia
Yeah, the law wants it all 'cause they know that the wild weed can free ya
And freedom for us is a prison for the rulers of might!
That's why the Free Mexican Air Force -- Mescalito riding his white horse --
Yeah, the Free Texican Air Force is flyin' tonight!
Flyin' so high- yi- yee...
Flyin' tonight!

 

 

 

I think you've reminded me I probably don't understand America in 100%  

And quite often - vice versa, IME 

 

Cool post!

 

2 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

"The Finest Rock Improvisation Ever Recorded" - Robert Christgau, 37 year editor and chief music critic for Village Voice

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 I am tempted to say it leans toward noodling

 

I must admit 'noodling' is the word I've been trying to not use here since the very first post regardless how provocative this thread was meant to be.. BTW I used to like Village Voice a lot when I lived in NY but I don't think we need support of outer authorities when we talk music here. We've all heard quite a lot and know a thing or two about it or even more. We also obviously have different tastes and different bands shaped our music worlds. We even have different life experiences. Hope we all understand that. I definitely wouldn't hate or kill anyone who wouldn't agree with me that the most important performers in the late 60s/early 70s after The Beatles were gone and at the same time the ones who stood the test of time best (again for me) were Hendrix and Led Zeppelin.. Let's not treat the conversations about music that(!) personal 

 

Word of explanation - like I just said - the thread was in some part meant to be a provocation and in some part - an attempt to understand the phenomenon of Grateful Dead which I think I never quite understood. I know there are quite many Dead fans here and some people from whom I could simply get first handed information - 'what the heck was/is it all about.?' And I think I'm much closer now, after some posts by their fans, to understand what GD was to America, especially after checking out their 1977 concert recommended here by some. Think I can hear this relaxed, family-like, positive atmosphere and the strong connection between the band and the audience some were talking about here.

 

I said here a couple of weeks ago that I separate music and art in general from its creators - I said while discussing the whole thing with Chris, I think, that if a given musician was a, let's say, a criminal of even worst kind but at the same time he had recorded some fantastic music - I'd still buy the album. Art and who the artist is for me are two separate things. I said - AFAIK Miles Davis was a son of a gun in some regards but it doesn't change my perception of 'Kind of Blue' and dozens of his other great albums.

 

At the same time - for me the opposite is also true - it's meaningless how great a guy/band making music is, how fantastic on social or any other level his fans are and how great atmosphere both the band and the audience create during live shows - if the music isn't fully convincing for me - just forget it, I'm simply not interested.

 

Which I'm afraid is the case here. I must add that I have a big problem with country music and any music form influenced by it will probably always be problematical for me. Maybe if I was born in the US things would be different but something tells me that not necessarily.. 

 

I think I understand a little better what GD meant for young people in America and the fact that the whole cultural and social context is at least as important here as the music itself which for me is still not that interesting, sorry for that.

 

I didn't mean to offend anybody, thanks to everyone who contributed! 

 

Ps. Think I will get the above mentioned GD concert and check it out some day eg in a car during some long drive, something tells me it could be quite a good thing in such circumstances  

 

[sphinxsix]

  

12 minutes ago, clipper said:

 

 

 

 

 

This video is age-restricted and only available on YouTube. Learn more

Watch on YouTube

 

Never seen something like that (usually being logged in to my Google account was enough):

 

Choose how to verify your age

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Use a credit card to verify immediately

You won’t be charged. Any transaction fee will be fully refunded.

Use your ID

Submit an image of a valid ID like your driver’s license or passport. It may take up to 3 days to verify your ID.

 

[sphinxsix]

1 minute ago, clipper said:

It's because there's a little nudity (innocent, Woodstock style stuff) in the video.

 

I didn't get the "verify your age" request that you got.  I had a YouTube account that I must have age verified sometime in the past (I guess).

 

Maybe I'm just too young for GD! 

 

[sphinxsix]

22 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

If you are ever in Texas, look me up, we can go sit outside on a warm day (ok, hot), eat BBQ (or crawfish if they are in season), drink cold beer, and listen to country music.  If you have your best girl with you we can get you up to speed with the Texas two-step (and if you don't have one there all always lots of lovely Texas ladies that love to dance). :)

 

Thanks, if I happen to visit Texas, I will contact you for sure.

After the two-step (just love the idea!) could we search for some Stevie Ray Vaughan legacy traces? 

 

Great playing - not only on dobro, I really mean it!

Where should i search to find country music like that.?

 

[sphinxsix]

10 hours ago, bluesman said:

especially when your mind is psychedelecized (OK old rockers - who gets credit for that line???)

 

This was about soul, not mind  The Chambers Brothers title song from what I guess was their best album.

 

 

[sphinxsix]

18 hours ago, bluesman said:

What does overrated mean?

 

Cambridge Dictionary and their example of use:

 

overrated

adjective

 

UK 

 

 /ˌəʊ.vəˈreɪ.tɪd/ US 

 

 /ˌoʊ.vɚˈreɪ.t̬ɪd/

 

 

If something or someone is overrated, that person or thing is considered to be better or more important than they really are:

In my opinion, she's a hugely overrated singer.

 

 

9 hours ago, ARQuint said:

People requested Grateful Dead songs at Bar Mitzvahs?

 

Surprise here as well.

 

7 hours ago, bluesman said:

They really did want a blues wedding and a band that could play some of the usual wedding stuff every once in a while.

 

I remember taking part in jazz wedding party, it was great!

Also Rumba one in NYC.

 

5 hours ago, bluesman said:

 And he was apparently a bit weird.

 

A tiny little bit.. or a little more than that 

 

3 hours ago, bobbmd said:

y’all have to realize just what all bands groups solo artists meant to our generation caught up in assassinations and a war with wasted efforts/promises of presidents gone wrong. They(the artists) gave us something to gravitate to, hold on to, dream about and rally around and just enjoy their words phrases and foot stomping good music. For later generations who never saw them/heard/listened to their music originally— to denigrate their worthiness/and consider them ‘over-rated‘ is unfair and not their right or privilege only those of us ‘of the age’ have that right/privilege.

 

I think I begin to understand the meaning of GD to that generation, I've never had a problem with understanding the meaning of eg Hendrix or Joplin for them. GD is to a greater degree an American phenomenon than Hendrix or Joplin, I believe. 

This thread came out from a conviction that in case of GD the discrepancy between their cult status and their strictly musical abilities (compositions, soloing creativity and sophistication, instrumental technique..) was probably among the biggest ones (can't be mathematically measured of course though).

@bluesman As a musician how would you personally rate eg these three aspects (composition, soloing, technique) in case of GD.? Frankly, please 

 

[sphinxsix]

34 minutes ago, bluesman said:

  So in essence, I think the Dead were underachievers who wasted their talents and settled for being idolized by a throng of adoring fans who got what they paid for, in spades.

 

Much earlier I wanted to say on this thread that IMO that's the danger of being a band like GD (but there are more examples, like I said earlier also from my own, local scene) in a sense of having so devoted, so faithful audience and the danger is - the band knows that almost whatever they do, whatever material they issue - their fans will love them anyway. Such sense of 'security' can IMO be very dangerous for creativity. Just my 2p.

 

[sphinxsix]

11 hours ago, JoshM said:

The Chambers Brothers? There’s so much to enjoy!

 

I agree - in particular the mentioned album is not bad at all!

 

[sphinxsix]

 

Just decided in an attempt to understand even better to see the 'Long Strange Trip' (wasn't the last word supposed to begin with 'D'.? ) documentary.

 

[sphinxsix]

9 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Not hate you, but not gonna want to hang out with you either ... to analyze the Dead based on recordings is to have missed the polysensory experience. 

Ever been to a Dead concert?

 

You're late to the party, I almost like them 😊

[sphinxsix]

11 hours ago, jabbr said:

Not hate you, but not gonna want to hang out with you either ... to analyze the Dead based on recordings is to have missed the polysensory experience. 

 

11 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

 

You're late to the party, I almost like them 😊

 

But seriously - I don't think seeing the documentary will change my perception of their music (and all I meant by 'underrated' was related to the music itself) - in my case it doesn't work this way. The fact that I know about the relation of Miles Davis painful hip problem and drugs abuse and his painful, wah-wah distorted trumpet tone in the early 70s helps me to understand the possible reasons behind the latter but for me the music must speak for itself. If I didn't like the 1970-1975 period in his music, and I do like it - this knowledge wouldn't have changed it. And so I know that I will not become a great GD fan after seeing the 4 hours long (it'd better be good! ) documentary or after checking out closer their above mentioned 1977 concert, which I have also promised myself to do - I'm a too mature listener not to be aware of that, I'm also much more interested in classical music now than in rock but I would like to understand better the phenomenon which was GD, which already happened to some degree due to some interesting posts on this thread. 

I must  say 100% seriously that when I started the thread I had some antipathy for the band, which I perceived as pretty highly overrated in particular by the American audience and critics (speaking about the music itself again!). The antipathy has meanwhile changed to some sympathy probably not only due to the fact that I have quite positive attitude to the American counterculture of the late 60's and 70's but also due to some fans who expressed their attitude to the band and the whole cultural context in which GD existed here, passion is contagious, period. Thanks for this guys!

I may still evolve as far as my attitude to Grateful Dead is regarded, I'll try to keep you informed, guys 

Thanks to everyone who contributed!

 

[sphinxsix]

11 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Don’t compare Grateful Dead to Miles Davis or John Coltrane, see them as a folk band. Folk isn’t about technical perfection, rather a “feeling”.

 

Miles was a pretty poor technically trumpet player. I like quite lots of folk stuff, beginning with Woody Guthrie.

 

14 minutes ago, jabbr said:

From a technical point of view the “Wall of Sound” was literally groundbreaking

 

I'd probably  agree with that.

 

[sphinxsix]

39 minutes ago, PeterG said:

Well, since Miles redefined jazz, the trumpet, and music in general multiple times, maybe it was everybody else who was poor technically? 

 

 

You will not find a bigger Miles fan than the one writing these words, on this forum, believe me. As for playing the trumpet - he really struggled with the technique quite often though. He used to be technically at his best probably in the second half of the 60's, his experiments with wah-wah pedal in the 70's were IMO great and really adventurous, nevertheless throughout his whole career he used to choose the master take based on only one critterium - the quality of his(!) solo . I'm pretty sure he was aware of his own limitations. On some unofficial recordings (I have more than a hundred of his albums) you can hear some really embarrassing moments.. Doesn't matter - he was one of 2, maybe 3 most important jazz musicians anyway! 

 

39 minutes ago, PeterG said:

That you go on to mention a folk singer in the same breath...I cannot even bring myself to respond

 

 

I guess you don't know me well, I possibly could've mentioned Metallica or Bach in the very same sentence..! 

 

[sphinxsix]

Well, I'm 1h20min into the documentary (will divide it probably into 3 watching sessions) and for now I will only say one thing - I bet Garcia's 'noodling' style of playing is connected in some way with the fact that he had been a bluegrass banjo player before he took up electric guitar, his idea of a guitar solo (sure, they were diverse..) to me seems to be often connected in a way with a bluegrass banjo style of solos. That's it for now.

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, christopher3393 said:

 

Interesting. There is something to this. I found a 1991 interview with Jerry and this issue is raised but seems to fall in a grey zone for Jerry himself.

 

Jerry Garcia on Banjo

 

 

 

Quoting JG from this interview:

" I work on electric guitar, the top strings anyway, like a banjo sometimes. My intention with some of my soloing is to get something that's like the banjo in terms of the clarity."

"BNL: Does your banjo playing inform your guitar playing?

JG: Yeah, in a way. Certainly more than my guitar playing informs my banjo playing."

 

I actually don't know what they mean by 'informing' maybe someone's English is better than mine and he could clarify it (is this like in 'historically informed perfrmances'?).

 

What I meant was what he said in the first quote - that I sometimes can hear influence of banjo playing technique on his guitar playing but that's not all. What I also had in mind had to do with a solo dramaturgy - its structure. Let's take e.g. Stevie Ray Vaughan solo:

 

 

It's like telling a story with a guitar - there are quiet moments in the story, dramatic ones, sad ones, energetic ones etc..

Bluegrass solos are usually constructed dramatically in a different way - they don't have such huge dramatic contrasts, are more even, one could say that in comparison to SRV Hendrixian school of guitar playing - they have compressed DR (dramatic range ) eg:

 

 

And in this regard JG's solos often remind me in a way of bluegrass banjo (or other) solos - they are more 'even', one could say there is sometimes an element of 'noodling' in them (it wasn't me who first used this word on this thread ).

 

BTW I totally  agree with JG - I'm not a huge fan of banjo but Bela Fleck is fantastic on this instrument! (just check out his 'Live at the Quick', those who haven't seen/heard it).

BTW 2 IMHO (I'm not a banjo expert in no way) based on what I heard in 'Long Slow Trip' - JG was a very good banjo player as well!