Grateful Dead - the Most Overrated Band Ever?

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

I actually would be pleased/hoped to get input that supported or argued against that opinion- @bluesman :)

Sadly, I can’t contribute because I can’t find a clear statement of an opinion.  In fact, I don’t understand what this thread is about.  What does overrated mean?  A whole lot of people loved the Dead, bought a whole lot of their albums and concert tickets, and thought their music was fabulous.  I’m not among them - in fact, I’ve never owned or played a Dead track at home and have only played any of their music myself when a band in which I was a hired sideman had it on their playlist (eg at a wedding or Bar Mitzvah).

 

What rating is erroneously high.....the amount of money spent?  the joy they bring to their fans?  I don’t think that’s for us to decide.  If you’re talking about Garcia as a guitarist, all I can tell you is that Santana thinks he was mighty fine.  Read the beautiful paragraph that Santana wrote about him for the Rolling Stone list of the 100 best guitarists a few years ago (Garcia was 49th, as I recall).  He played some beautiful lines and he played a lot of boring, rambling solos that made noodling sound like an art he’d yet to master.

 

To be fair, almost every musician in any genre that encompasses improvisation resorts to his or her personal cliches at times - even the greats.  Oscar Peterson noodled his way through many tunes with repetitive, formulaic solos that were artfully played but neither new or innovative.  Maynard Ferguson was a stunning player, but a lot of his playing had no content except beautiful high notes played only because they were so hard to play.  Their playing was loved as much because it was thrilling to hear anybody play that well as because it was great music.  Noodling?  I think so.

 

jerry Douglas? Sheer beauty!  Like Maynard, his playing and tone are so great that he’s fun to hear tuning up.  His simple accompaniment is one of the sweetest sounds in the world, and his improvisation is so well structured that it seems like he writes it out in his mind first and plays from a mental score.  But I’ll bet he has at least a few lines and phrases that he uses frequently in multiple songs.  We all do.  It could be called noodling.
 

As for groups like the Dead, when you play 20+ minute tunes in a 4 hour concert it’s hard to be endlessly creative through the whole thing, especially when your mind is psychedelecized (OK old rockers - who gets credit for that line???). Overrated is a meaningless term to me.  

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, ARQuint said:

People requested Grateful Dead songs at Bar Mitzvahs? Who knew?

 

What’s even weirder is how Dead songs sounded played by the average Bar Mitzvah band.  At least I was with the top live music office in the Delaware Valley in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s (Music Associates).  We were the Wrecking Crew of the wedding circuit!  A lot of the sidemen were fixtures at Sigma and in the developing Sound of Philadelphia.  
 

There were several active members of major bands working the circuit with us when not on the road.  In addition to Philly’s best, we had amazing nationally known players - Al Grey and Tyrone Brown played some for MA when Count Basie was idle.  And Al Slutsky, who made the movie “Standing in the Shadows of Motown”, was another MA guitarist.  We were kinda like the original Tonight Show bands - our covers were pretty convincing.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, ssh said:

The first time I heard "psychedelecized" I was listening to George Clinton's "Free your mind your ass will follow".

 

Still good advice!

Close but not the first.  Hints: it was in a hit released 3 years before “Free Your Mind” by one of the first “psychedelic bands”.  The album version ran 11 minutes, which was outrageous in 1966.

 

That band and the many following their formula took noodling to a new level (or, as I see them, to a new depth).  Their solos were largely distorted, drug fueled sonic excrescences compared to which Garcia was Segovia.

[bluesman]

7 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

Well tells you something. Could you imagine them playing In Memory of Elizabeth Reed at a Bar Mitvah or wedding??

You’d be amazed at the spectrum of taste in the crowd.  Most of these affairs would have been boring or worse if I wasn’t playing with truly great musicians who saw our collective job as making every song as good as it could be.  And an occasional bride, family, or guest would ask for a wonderful tune that challenged us.

 

I also played for Harriet Fay (a similar office equally as fine as MA) for several years after MA closed down.  She booked me to lead a “blues wedding”, so I went out to meet the couple-to-be several weeks beforehand to plan it out.  My first line to them was that I knew they said they wanted a blues wedding, but that their parents and grandparents probably had no idea what that meant.  I explained that I’d bring a band with players who knew the blues well and we’d play some popular numbers like Thrill is Gone.

 

The bride told me she’d be right back, and she came in a few minutes later with her parents.  They really did want a blues wedding and a band that could play some of the usual wedding stuff every once in a while.  They knew blues history and had a music collection that rivaled mine!  So I brought 6 serious blues players with me plus Georgie Bonds at the mic fronting trumpet, tenor sax, harmonica, and a full rhythm section with me on guitar. It was a great and totally unexpected experience - and they loved it!,

[bluesman]

8 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

This was about soul, not mind  The Chambers Brothers title song from what I guess was their best album.

Bingo!  I agree - it was probably their best. But even that was a very low bar.  I found absolutely nothing to enjoy in their music.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

This was about soul, not mind  The Chambers Brothers title song from what I guess was their best album.

Most don’t realize that this phase of their career was a total abandonment of what had been a wonderful gospel group. They were really great - Dylan agreed and helped drive their pre-psychedelic success.  They performed at Newport Folk in 1965 to great acclaim.  But time came one day, and the rest is history.

 

One reviewer of the initial single release described it as something like squeals that sound like a cat whose tail has just been stepped on, with cowbell smacks.

[bluesman]

35 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

Though I am not sure of the status of Antone's (Antone was fairly shady), where he cut his teeth, listened to some of the greats and began sitting in.

Last I knew (2 years ago), Antone’s was still open and back on 5th St.  How shady he was is a matter of interpretation, as a lot of his legal / drug problems allegedly stemmed from his willingness to provide whatever his performers wanted. I have no firsthand knowledge of his behavior, but the real story would probably make a great book and screenplay.

 

Antone’s was a great example of the cross-pollination among genres.  The first act he had was Clifton Chenier, as I recall.  Many of the players and a lot of their music crossed all the boundaries that most people use to separate and define blues, country, rock, zydeco, reggae etc.  In truth, there are elements of all in each.  Many of the greatest draw no distinction and are equally at home in them all.  Some of the finest players in the rock world are also on some of the finest country and blues albums.

 

Look no further than Russ Kunkel and Leland Sklar.  They’re on an amazing array of hits.  Sklar has played on over 2000 albums and backed Joni, Phil Collins, James Taylor, Wynnona, Rod Stewart, Dolly etc. Kunkel is equally accomplished- and together, they’re a powerhouse in today’s music scene in a wide variety of styles.

 

As a kid, SRV went to Antone’s to sit stageside and hear his older brother Jimmy & his band (The Fabulous Thunderbirds”).  Jimmy’s a totally different kind of player, and Stevie Ray’s style captured a far bigger audience.  
 

The greats of Antone’s include 3 of my favorite singers.  Angela Strehli, Marcia Ball, and Lou Ann Barton were friends back in the ‘70s in Texas.  Each is a fabulous performer - find their albums and set aside a weekend to fall in love with them.  Barton was SRV’s girlfriend at times, and Strehli became Antone’s business manager, keeping the place and his record business going for him in his absence.

 

Read SRV’s bio by Keri Leigh, who’s another fabulous blues singer.  Find her album “Early Arrival” - it’s beyond great!

[bluesman]

24 minutes ago, ssh said:

"One reviewer of the initial single release described it as something like squeals that sound like a cat whose tail has just been stepped on, with cowbell smacks. "

 

It's probably a good thing that reviewer didn't listen to Captain Beefheart!

 

Interesting observation!  Vliet was actually a great composer and played several instruments very well.  He reminds me of Zappa and maybe even a little bit of Miles. He was a meticulous and demanding band leader who wanted every note and every beat to be perfect.  And he was apparently a bit weird.

 

He sure trod a long, wide path from the blues rock of Diddy Wah Diddy to whatever you want to call his late stuff!

[bluesman]

54 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

As a musician how would you personally rate eg these three aspects (composition, soloing, technique) in case of GD.? Frankly, please 

They were accomplished musicians with chops and taste to spare.  Many of their compositions are very musical, well structured, and stand on their own.  Listen to Brokedown Palace as a great example.  Weir, Lesh et al could really play well.

 

But they let a lot get between them and the kind of musical legacy they could have had (and richly deserved) were it not for the social influences that made them what they were - a niche legend, albeit a very big niche.   Alcohol, heroin, LSD, morphine, speed and much more kept various members from achieving their potential, with Garcia’s drug abuse predating the Dead and getting worse as the years went on.  
 

Listen to Might as Well, a Garcia-Hunter composition written on a drunken, drug powered train tour with the Bramletts,  Janis, The Band et al.  It’s actually a pretty sophisticated chart, with some wonderful and unexpected chord changes that really make the music interesting. The intro makes you think it’s just another 12 bar blues, but it’s far from that.  Sadly, at least to me, they managed to make it boring with their repetitive noodling, boring lyrics, and apparent lack of drive to take their music further.
 

My continuing thoughts about the Dead center on how much potential they had and how tightly being the Grateful Dead constrained them.  They played that song on multiple albums over decades and performed it at countless concerts.  They remained what and where they were, when they had a Beatles-like set of musical knowledge, skill, and experience that would have served them well if they had the guts, interest, and drive to strive to be more than they were.  
 

How much of that complacency was due to drugs I don’t know.  But I know of no musician who is better fried than clean and sober, despite the common and erroneous belief that they are.   So in essence, I think the Dead were underachievers who wasted their talents and settled for being idolized by a throng of adoring fans who got what they paid for, in spades.

[bluesman]

On 3/28/2021 at 10:21 AM, sphinxsix said:

Miles was a pretty poor technically trumpet player.

That's an old cliché that's simply not true.  He was no Rafael Méndez, but he was a very skilled and sensitive player.  His pitch and intonation were excellent, as was his control - and he had great technical facility.  The fact that he chose not to play every note he could every chance he got was not an indication that he was anything less than excellent - it was just how he heard the music in his head.  And as he was quite a showman, he probably laid back to contrast himself as being cool against Dizzy's frenetic style.

 

The well known players whose prowess was their raison d'etre (e.g. Maynard, Dizzy) were not that far ahead of MIles in pure technique.  And there are many others who have / had the chops but also saw no reason to show off.  Doc Severinsen is a great example - he was as skilled a trumpeter as anybody (probably including Mendez).  In fact, most of the trumpeters in the top Latin bands are outstanding technicians, as are funk and blues players like Adolfo Acosta (Tower of Power) and the horn sections of Jack Mack, the Memphis Horns, etc.

[bluesman]

50 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

I could present you immediately a dozen of his live recordings (usually not official ones) where they weren't.

I suspect that any issues with technical prowess were directly related to substance abuse, at which he was apparently also expert.  When on his game, Miles was an excellent player.

[bluesman]

57 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

I must admit my knowledge related to these recordings doesn't reach that far, but I'd agree that of course at least some of his technical issues might have been related to different substances abuse.

As a person, Miles was a perpetual mess.  Read his autobiography (the one co-authored by Quincy Troupe) and try to find the Rolling Stone bio.  He got hooked on heroin in the '50s, continued to record, but as described in one of the bios, "his performances were haphazard".  When he was on, Miles was about as good as it gets except for the virtuosos, almost all of whom who had more technique than taste.  But he was off so many times in his career and for so long at a time that he left a legacy of marginal performances.  Between '75 and '81 (the years covered in the movie Miles Ahead, which is well worth seeing), he didn't release a single recording.

 

An apocryphal story's been published so many times that it's probably true.  In 1982, when Musician Magazine asked what he did between '75 and '81, Miles answered: “Nothin’. Gettin’ high. I didn’t feel like playing the trumpet, didn’t feel like listening to music. Didn’t want to hear it, see it, smell it, nothin’ about it… I didn’t come out of the house for about four years… But then Dizzy came around and said, ‘What the f**k are you doing? You were put here to play music!’ So I started back.”

 

He was one angry, miserable, nmessed up human for most of his life.   He was notoriously unfaithful to his wives, which broke up his marriages  His breakup with his wife Frances Taylor really shook him badly, which also affected his playing.  He married Betty Mabry in '68 and divorced her within a year, after which he got back into heavy drug use.  He married Cicely Tyson, with whom he'd been having affairs for years while still married to Mabry - and he cheated on Tyson to the point at which she divorced him too.

 

If you don't view Miles in accurate context, you can't really understand the frenetic and dangerous balance in which his talent was suspended.  He was a truly great musician.  Sadly, he didn't value that enough to let it ease any of his pain - and it didn't seem to mean enough to him to help keep his demons in check.  He was willing to sacrifice his greatest gift for his vices, and he suffered for this as much as we did.  Miles never really achieved peace, equanimity, or true joy in life.  And we never got more than a glimpse of the greatness that lay within him.

 

[bluesman]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

He died of hepatocellular carcinoma (liver cancer), I suspect from Hepatitis B

Statitsitcally, it's more probable that he had hep C, which was unknown as an illness at the time (and was discovered in about 1990, as I recall).  Only about 5% of newly infected adults progress to chronic active hep B, but 50% of hep C patients progress to chronic disease.  And Hep C is more prevalent in the US.  From the CDC:

 

"2.4 million people are estimated to be living with hepatitis C in the United States. The actual number may be as high as 4.7 million or as low as 2.5 million. 850,000 people in the U.S. are estimated to be living with hepatitis B. The actual number may be as high as 2.2 million or as low as 730,000."

 

Through med school and my residency, we only knew that there was something we called "non-A, non-B hepatitis".   No infectious agent was identified for it until I was an attending surgeon for over a decade.

[bluesman]

5 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

I was just about to note that this thread has wandered, now catapulted off-topic, then chuckled to myself that maybe it isn’t......

I think we have a relevant work in progress:  "The Influence of Chronic Infectious Disease on Technical Prowess in Musicians".

[bluesman]

10 hours ago, bobbmd said:

the last time I remember really being 'happy' was 1963

I can’t tell you how unhappy that makes me - and on so many levels.  That’s so profoundly sad that I won’t denigrate it with humor.  I’m very sorry if that’s really true.