Unpopular opinion... I don't think Eric Clapton is very great.

[charlesphoto]

15 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

I don't see the point in defending or disapproving masks (or lockdowns). You believe in them, okay, I have nothing against your beliefs and I'm not going to convince you in ridiculousness of such. Someone else doesn't believe in the miraculous power of masks and lockdowns - again, I have nothing against it. I'm not going to point the finger at anyone or draw parallels between the content of the songs and the amount of wealth of this or that person.

We're not talking about whether one person believes in unicorns (or God) and another doesn't (or USB cables). We're talking about basic respect for human life. I suppose you also could care less whether you are eating at a nice, romantic restaurant (pre-pandemic), spending $$, and somebody insists they have the right to come in with no shoes and shirt and be able to dine next to you? Shoes and shirts are 'inconvenient' and 'uncomfortable' for some, so don't point a finger. 

[mfsoa]

44 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

If I can not enter airport or shopping mall without mask it is clear enforcing.

Why would you ever have the desire to enter an airport or shopping mall without a mask? Wearing a mask says "I value my fellow humans and I am willing to work toward a better existence for all of us"

 

What are trying to convey when you don't want to wear a mask?  Ha Ha this will piss off liberals? I simply see no positive benefit to yourself or society by not wearing a mask when appropriate. 

 

Seriously, what is your motivation to not wear a mask if not health-based?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, today is a new day. So what if Eric Clapton didn't wear a mask while recording cocaine, high on cocaine. It's tough to snort coke through the mask. 

 

Let's all get beyond this off topic discussion that I had a part in starting. Sorry for kicking us off the rails (no pun intended), but consider this a righting of the ship. All further off-topic comments will be removed.

[PeterG]

I'll help.  Like the OP, I am also completely mystified by Clapton's repeated and enduring popularity.  Except for While My Guitar Gently Weeps, I have never heard one of his solos and thought "Wow--I really need to hear that again..."  Yet I've had this reaction with a huge number of other guitarists, both famous, and not so much.

 

Of course, I am also mystified that Taylor Swift is our most popular vocalist.  Perhaps they have something in common?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, PeterG said:

I'll help.  Like the OP, I am also completely mystified by Clapton's repeated and enduring popularity.  Except for While My Guitar Gently Weeps, I have never heard one of his solos and thought "Wow--I really need to hear that again..."  Yet I've had this reaction with a huge number of other guitarists, both famous, and not so much.

 

Of course, I am also mystified that Taylor Swift is our most popular vocalist.  Perhaps they have something in common?

Interesting last sentence. Perhaps the popularity is based on being entertained by an entertainer. I guess this could explain the popularity of the band Kiss as well 

[Priaptor]

2 minutes ago, PeterG said:

I'll help.  Like the OP, I am also completely mystified by Clapton's repeated and enduring popularity.  Except for While My Guitar Gently Weeps, I have never heard one of his solos and thought "Wow--I really need to hear that again..."  Yet I've had this reaction with a huge number of other guitarists, both famous, and not so much.

 

Of course, I am also mystified that Taylor Swift is our most popular vocalist.  Perhaps they have something in common?

Interesting that one of the posts here (and I am too tired to look for which) referenced an article from "RollingStone" regarding an off topic claim about gun violence as some truism YET we choose to ignore the same periodical for the one thing they have always been, namely a stalwart of rock, as it pertains to ranking the greatest guitarists of all time, which they rank Clapton as #2. 

 

I get that much of Clapton's work following Cream, Derek & The Dominos as well as those that preceded both is banal BUT his stunning abilities and contributions as a guitarist overall cannot be ignored. You and others may not like him but I fail to see how it is "mystifying" to think of him as one of the greatest guitarists of all time. That fact that this mystifies people is mystifying to me. 

 

Personally, I rather listen to Knopfler, who unforutnately ONLY ranks as #44 on their all time greatest list, while a truly mediocre guitarist by comparison (not entertainer or song writer mind you), Neil Young, ranks #17. LOL 

[Priaptor]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Interesting last sentence. Perhaps the popularity is based on being entertained by an entertainer. I guess this could explain the popularity of the band Kiss as well 

My analogy is by no means meant as a slight to Hendrix but probably the best thing going for Hendrix as THE LEGEND is his untimely death. Clapton suffers from living a long life where he has had to make many compromises in his musical career, some of which most likely was for commercial appeal and some of which was to assuage the changing paradigm in so called rock music. 

 

I would have been a real interesting road to see how and what Hendrix morphed into or if he stayed true to his roots had he lived. We can only project but we will never know. 

 

One of the reasons I really enjoy Knopfler and rather listen to him than just about any other "great" guitarist on that list is because even his commercial movie scores some considered mediocre by many I find quite enjoyable. When I go for long rides and hikes in Montana who do I listen to? Knopfler!

[Samuel T Cogley]

I think if your first exposure to Clapton was After Midnight or I Shot The Sheriff, you're going to be inclined to shrug when meeting an enthusiastic Clapton fan.

 

Putting Clapton in the timeline of British Blues is important from a musical history standpoint.  But I'm firmly in the camp of "the hype of Clapton far exceeds the musical ability of Clapton".

[Samuel T Cogley]

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Interesting last sentence. Perhaps the popularity is based on being entertained by an entertainer. I guess this could explain the popularity of the band Kiss as well 

 

KISS was all hype, no talent.

[charlesphoto]

42 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

 

Of course, I am also mystified that Taylor Swift is our most popular vocalist.  Perhaps they have something in common?

Having an eight year old daughter brings one around to the acceptance of Taylor Swift's charm. Otherwise, I don't know...

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto said:

Having an eight year old daughter brings one around to the acceptance of Taylor Swift's charm. Otherwise, I don't know...

It absolutely does. 

 

It's also nice to put on almost anything she does, and not worry too much about it being inappropriate. 

[charlesphoto]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It absolutely does. 

 

It's also nice to put on almost anything she does, and not worry too much about it being inappropriate. 

It is. And my dyslexic daughter is currently reading a Level 3 biography of Ms. Swift. It's all good imo. 

[57gold]

Not sure how I missed this thread until today.  As a very dedicated student of guitar since the early 1970s, I have followed EC's music.  Learned to play lead performing Sunshine of Your Love and Badge in a middle school band (used to be called junior high).  Since then, seen EC perform in every decade since that time and own most of his recordings.

 

How I understand EC develop as a performer is as one who has reinvented himself over time.  

 

• Early with Yardbirds and Bluesbreakers he was woodshedding the electric blues tradition. 
• With Cream and Blind Faith he contributed to the creation of what some call classic rock in a major way incorporating the blues riffology  into the language of rock/pop tunes. 
• His first solo record and the Dominoes were IMO the culmination of his creativity as a player, taking the skills and influences that developed from previous bands and very importantly from his work with Americans like Bonnie & Delaney and appreciation of the work of The Band, to have a sound of his own.  Too bad that this period coincided with the spread of narcotics in the musical world that killed artists like Jimi, Janis and Jim, because it also sent EC into despair and hiding; a period from which he has never recovered as a guitar innovator.  
• All the music since Ocean Blvd has been focused on EC as a singer who plays guitar.  Not one recording since 1974 has featured the instrumental creativity of EC as a guitarist and arranger of his previous work.  You dig the songs or don't.  Nothing to emulate or learn from as a guitarist.  During live shows since that period, when he plays, it is from a rather stale vocabulary of riffs and the most insteresting guitar playing comes from his sidemen like Derek Trucks or Doyle Bramhall. Even EC's guitar tone at recent shows has kinda sucked; first with the over processed and effected Soldano SLO100 (1980s rig) Behind the Sun - Journeyman (Phil Collins) period and then later with the signature Strat with nasty Lace Sensor pick ups into a weak facsimile of a Tweed that he gets paid royalties on.  He sold a million Strats and so he figured out he should get paid by Fender for the free marketing he did for them starting with his 1970 solo record.

 

Have to say that at last couple of shows, what shined was his voice.  His tenuous Cream and 1970 solo album vocals were developed into a more confident and controlled vocal stylist. Also think it is important to listen to EC's and others' music in the context and time it was delivered to listeners.  Much of EC's late 1960s through the Dominoes playing was groundbreaking when recorded, but since then it has been appropriated and incorporated into essentially all electric rock players since.  So today, to a new listener,  it doesn't sound original (same with Jimi and Pete and Jeff).

 

Have to also comment on Jimi.  All one has to do is listen to his last WIP, which was originally released as Cry of Love, to get a glimpse of where he was taking his music.  It abounds with complex multi track guitar arrangements, funky rhythmic grooves, plays homage to a sophisticated class of electric blues and foretold of a future outburst of creativity stemming from his control of his own studio and the artistic freedom it provided.  In my heart I believe he was destined to intersect with the jazz world of folks like Miles Davis, who used to chide his Berkeley trained bop guitarists to "play it like Jimi".  His loss was a tremendous one for the instrument and the music.

 

Gonna go play my Strat.

 

[AudioDoctor]

OK. Good idea Chris. My apologies.

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto said:

It is. And my dyslexic daughter is currently reading a Level 3 biography of Ms. Swift. It's all good imo. 

 

I too have found her appeal, and appreciate that she has a mostly positive message for girls.

[Jud]

Deleted.

[Jud]

47 minutes ago, 57gold said:

Not sure how I missed this thread until today.  As a very dedicated student of guitar since the early 1970s, I have followed EC's music.  Learned to play lead performing Sunshine of Your Love and Badge in a middle school band (used to be called junior high).  Since then, seen EC perform in every decade since that time and own most of his recordings.

 

How I understand EC develop as a performer is as one who has reinvented himself over time.  

 

• Early with Yardbirds and Bluesbreakers he was woodshedding the electric blues tradition. 
• With Cream and Blind Faith he contributed to the creation of what some call classic rock in a major way incorporating the blues riffology  into the language of rock/pop tunes. 
• His first solo record and the Dominoes were IMO the culmination of his creativity as a player, taking the skills and influences that developed from previous bands and very importantly from his work with Americans like Bonnie & Delaney and appreciation of the work of The Band, to have a sound of his own.  Too bad that this period coincided with the spread of narcotics in the musical world that killed artists like Jimi, Janis and Jim, because it also sent EC into despair and hiding; a period from which he has never recovered as a guitar innovator.  
• All the music since Ocean Blvd has been focused on EC as a singer who plays guitar.  Not one recording since 1974 has featured the instrumental creativity of EC as a guitarist and arranger of his previous work.  You dig the songs or don't.  Nothing to emulate or learn from as a guitarist.  During live shows since that period, when he plays, it is from a rather stale vocabulary of riffs and the most insteresting guitar playing comes from his sidemen like Derek Trucks or Doyle Bramhall. Even EC's guitar tone at recent shows has kinda sucked; first with the over processed and effected Soldano SLO100 (1980s rig) Behind the Sun - Journeyman (Phil Collins) period and then later with the signature Strat with nasty Lace Sensor pick ups into a weak facsimile of a Tweed that he gets paid royalties on.  He sold a million Strats and so he figured out he should get paid by Fender for the free marketing he did for them starting with his 1970 solo record.

 

Have to say that at last couple of shows, what shined was his voice.  His tenuous Cream and 1970 solo album vocals were developed into a more confident and controlled vocal stylist. Also think it is important to listen to EC's and others' music in the context and time it was delivered to listeners.  Much of EC's late 1960s through the Dominoes playing was groundbreaking when recorded, but since then it has been appropriated and incorporated into essentially all electric rock players since.  So today, to a new listener,  it doesn't sound original (same with Jimi and Pete and Jeff).

 

Have to also comment on Jimi.  All one has to do is listen to his last WIP, which was originally released as Cry of Love, to get a glimpse of where he was taking his music.  It abounds with complex multi track guitar arrangements, funky rhythmic grooves, plays homage to a sophisticated class of electric blues and foretold of a future outburst of creativity stemming from his control of his own studio and the artistic freedom it provided.  In my heart I believe he was destined to intersect with the jazz world of folks like Miles Davis, who used to chide his Berkeley trained bop guitarists to "play it like Jimi".  His loss was a tremendous one for the instrument and the music.

 

Gonna go play my Strat.

 

 

Just wanted to note how much I enjoy and agree with this post. Could not have said it any better.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I see the mention of Yes and thought I’d lighten the mood with a tweet that nearly made me spit out my tea. Too funny. 
 

 

 

Was never into Yes when they were putting out albums. But the friend up the road likes them a lot; so, I end up hearing quite a bit of their stuff. ... If one was ever asked why optimising the SQ of a rig is such a big deal, then pointing to records like this is an easy answer - sub-par playback is an endurance test of a high order 🤪; but if the reproduction is in the zone, then the content all makes sense - and delights the ear ... the "lot going on" crosses the gap between the members of Yes, and you ...

[57gold]

Glad you enjoyed the musing, Jud.  

 

Wanted to add that I'm guessing that the OP and many who "don't get EC" did not buy Cream, Blind Faith, the 1970 solo album nor the Layla album when the were first released or were relatively fresh.   Remember driving my banana bike to the record store to buy the Dominoes album the week it was released; it was expensive because it was a double album but I had just started caddying at the local country club so I could swing it.  It was so new, raw, broad in scope (blues, country, rock, folk)and adventurous that even the expert critics didn't get it at first. One even panned it hard and said it was "pointless and boring" and "a basket case of an album", and said that Clapton had "all but blown his musical credibility". Another trashed the softer tunes as filler...it was seen as a commercial failure.  

 

But the music, the vibe, the performances continue as an inspiration today.  For me, the best part of a Tedeschi Truck Band show is one of their renditions of a Dominoes tune.  In fact TTB and Trey Anastasio teamed up at the Lockin' Festival a couple of years ago and performed the whole album front to back.  My son took a file of it to college and played it at frat beer parties where it was well-received and we all stopped by to hear Bobby Whitlock perform in Austin a couple of years ago. We hoped that EC would give him a call to do a reunion performance, which would require Derek Trucks and some of his band members to pull it off.  Bobby's voice was still strong and he co wrote several of the tunes including Bell Bottom Blues...

 

Did I say I really like this album?

 

And agree, Yes is an acquired taste.  It tasted pretty cool when it came out, it was original and young aspiring musicians were in awe of the proficiency of the players - Bruford, Squire, Howe and Wakeman were seen as masters of their craft.  It was a badge of honor to be able to pull one of their songs off in a credible fashion.  To me it has not aged particularly well, the vocals and lyrics always seemed strange...but they were them and no one else was like them.  In 1971 a lot of music was happening - Who's Next, What's Goin' On, LA Woman, Pearl, Cat Stevens, Inner Mounting Flame,Sticky Fingers, Imagine, Weather Report, LZ IV, Low Spark, Aqualung...it was a happening time with plenty of room for originality.

 

Though, Yes to me is like Rush, either you like them or you really don't.  Which is cool.

 

Hey Marc, just figured out you are the dude with the podcast that I listened to yesterday during my COVID therapy 5 mile walk (no gym until we get shots).  Had been seeing Stanley Tucci's show on CNN and thought I'd give it a listen.  Great chat, thanks.  

[Allan F]

6 minutes ago, 57gold said:

Wanted to add that I'm guessing that the OP and many who "don't get EC" did not buy Cream, Blind Faith, the 1970 solo album nor the Layla album when the were first released or were relatively fresh.

 

I couldn't agree more. And don't forget EC's solo on the Beatles' "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".

[lucretius]

6 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

KISS was all hype, no talent.

 

Of course it was hype (I think that was the point):

 

https://ezessays.net/paper/7EewOGaK

[PeterG]

11 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

Having an eight year old daughter brings one around to the acceptance of Taylor Swift's charm. Otherwise, I don't know...

This is a great point, and I did not mean to diss T Swift (or Eric Clapton) as an entertainer.  I merely meant to assert that neither is a great virtuoso.

 

My 12 year old daughter and I had a terrific time at T's Speak Now show at  in Foxboro, Mass too many moons ago.  Of the 50,000 fans, I think 49,000 were girls/women, and maybe 48,000 of them sang every word at the top of their lungs.  It was the loudest full concert I've ever been to, for real.  Plus, Taylor's a marketing genius.

 

One of the messed up things about the music business is that pop stars are unbelievably rich while virtuoso talents such as Cecile McLorin Salvant and Stanley Jordan play small clubs for $30/ticket

[AnotherSpin]

If we judge a guitarist by his "virtuosity" and ability to produce endless external effects, then perhaps yes - Clapton, with years and gradually accumulated maturity, has ceased to be a firebrand. As have many other really important guitarists and musicians in general. Youth is addicted to external effects, tinsel and glitter. With maturity, the movement inward becomes more noticeable, the voice becomes quieter, the words less frequent.

[Solstice380]

On 3/4/2021 at 5:14 PM, charlesphoto said:

Yeah, that's not fair. Esp as I'm 57 so forget that I am or I'm almost one of those myself. I apologize for that, though not for my views on Clapton and HIS politics which seem to align with those that are having issues with mine in this thread. I made a rule last year to avoid politics on social media and have broken it. My bad. (though why the left is always supposed to lay down and play nice but not the right I'll never get). 

 

I agree with @AudioDoctor though. I should never have gotten into this - I'll blame it on drugs! Took an Immutrex this morning for a migraine and it can make me a bit loopy and and not so pleasant and impossible to concentrate on the real work I should be getting done (though the migraine went away). I'm out. 

Same here, Charles.  Apologies to you, and to all for the interruption.  I'm not far left or right, but have a great disdain for the "broad swath" painting of peoples that is going on these days.  Old white men, young black guys, squad, not to mention the derivative names everyone comes up with.... they make it easy to start throwing stones.  I've met very few people in my travels who don't get along one on one.  Put 'em in a broad swath label and it's easy to fire up rhetoric and totally confound an issue.  

 

Moving on...

[ShawnC]

If you just use the terminology is Clapton great as in the title of the thread, I think yes, he's achieved that title and well deserved as early as the mid seventies.  Is he the greatest of all time, no.  But he reigns among the greatest that have played the blues.  The other thing to remember is that Clapton kept leaving bands that wanted to become popular.  He wanted to be a blues player only.  It was Jonh Mayall that told Clapton if you want to play what you want, then your gonna have to learn how to sing so you can play what you want.  

 

As far as popularity goes, Eric was and still is very passive.  He didn't ask or choose to be famous, it just happens.  Look at all those one hit wonders that you remember the name of the artist or band that created it.  People love a good come back story and Clapton created that with his drug recovery and his mission to help those who are suffering with drugs and alcohol.  Sure in the eighties he may have moved towards a more pop like blues playing style but he's playing what he wants and the vast majority of fans enjoyed what he put out.  Lost of artist ebb and sway throughout their career.

 

Now for those of you mentioned that Tears in Heaven was a money grab, shame on you.  A musician looses a child, has the ability to put his feelings into his art and puts it all out there for those who have had the same experience to grieve with, should be honored not ridiculed.  It made a lot of money because most people care and have feelings and it's a great acoustic riff.

 

If you take someone like John Mayer who is a great guitarist, he's never considered a top 10 or 20 guitarist in most polls and I'd rather listen to him play then Clapton.  Blues is a hard category to determine who's the greatest because once you know the guitar and the scales it all sounds the same.  It's what individuals do with there instruments that can single them out.  It's all in the hands for a guitarist, some have it, some don't.  Those who have it, well, we all know there names, those who don't are still good musicians but there's nothing that makes them stand out in the crowd.