pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 This started as a proposal for an internet blind test on another thread: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62140-asr-audio-science-review-forum-youtube-channel/?do=findComment&comment=1113069 @PeterSt's Lush^2 cable against a generic USB cable, used to generate a recording that can then be tested by others. Claim: Lush^2 produces an obviously audible difference that can be detected 10 out of 10 times by Peter and others in a blind test Test: The test will be fairly simple: play music using a PC (iMac) over USB cables, A or B, directly into the DAC. Feed the analog output from the DAC into a quality pro ADC (Apogee Element24, which I've tested and measured before and know it measures well) and record this to a digital file. Rename and randomize the samples and upload them for a listening test. I can even publish measurements for these afterwards, if there's interest. Those hearing obvious differences can use an AB or ABX comparator that produces a digitally signed result and the result can then be shared when reporting your findings (FooBar ABX comparator, for example, also DeltaWave and a few others that I've seen). You're welcome to use any other testing mechanism if you want to listen for yourself, but your results will be harder to be confirmed by others. Lush^2 cable will be configured as follows, per Peter: A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R Before setting up the test, I'd to solicit any ideas here on how to improve the test and methodology, so please post your thoughts, concerns, and ideas here. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 asdf1000 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted February 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 27, 2021 Sorry, I couldn't resist - this will be interesting, seriously. sandyk and pkane2001 1 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
ray-dude Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 I would suggest that whomever does the digital capture compares the captured files to confirm that they are hearing a similar difference to what they hear in their system. If they do not, then that needs to be solved for before doing any blinded survey. I appreciate the spirit of this test and interested to see the outcome, but best to not have the interpretation devolve into a debate about whether the results apply to the capture methodology, vs whether the results apply to the cables under test. (bias disclosure: I've done tests with friends with Lush^2 cables in my living room (I knew which cable was which, they did not), and differences were obvious and consistent, both against stock cables and between some Lush^2 configurations). sandyk 1 ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 27, 2021 55 minutes ago, ray-dude said: I would suggest that whomever does the digital capture compares the captured files to confirm that they are hearing a similar difference to what they hear in their system. If they do not, then that needs to be solved for before doing any blinded survey. I appreciate the spirit of this test and interested to see the outcome, but best to not have the interpretation devolve into a debate about whether the results apply to the capture methodology, vs whether the results apply to the cables under test. (bias disclosure: I've done tests with friends with Lush^2 cables in my living room (I knew which cable was which, they did not), and differences were obvious and consistent, both against stock cables and between some Lush^2 configurations). I'm willing to troubleshoot any issues in recording that are under my control, but I'll draw the line at using Peter's full system with speakers and recording it from a microphone :) ray-dude and PeterSt 1 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post ASRMichael Posted February 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 27, 2021 Better method to test the two cables! It’s called my wife test! If she notices the difference then Lush wins! 😂 Anonamemouse, PeterG, Tone Deaf and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 6 minutes ago, ASRMichael said: Better method to test the two cables! It’s called my wife test! If she notices the difference then Lush wins! 😂 That is the most sensitive test known to man, especially when the wife is listening from the kitchen! ;) -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Tone Deaf Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 11 minutes ago, ASRMichael said: Better method to test the two cables! It’s called my wife test! If she notices the difference then Lush wins! 😂 I also can confirm, and that it works as a blind test. A long time ago I had borrowed a USB cable from a dealer to test. The spousal unit knew I was playing with the system, but didn't know any of the specifics. The spousal unit had already gone to bed when I took the borrowed cable out of the system, as I had to return it to the dealer the next day. She could still hear the system from the bedroom. When I came to bed a bit later she asked: "What did you just do to the stereo? It doesn't sound as good as it did earlier...." 🤔 PeterSt 1 Main System: Mac mini (Audirvana+, MMK, JS-2) -> ISO Regen (LPS-1) -> Icron 2201 (Rex LPS-1.2) -> ISO Regen (LPS-1.2) -> Ayre QB-9 Twenty -> Headamp GS-X Mk2 -> Classe CT-M600 -> KEF Reference 201/2 Link to comment
skatbelt Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tone Deaf said: spousal unit Word of the day for me 😂 Streamer dCS Network Bridge DAC Chord DAVE Amplifier / DRC Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Speakers Lindemann BL-10 | JL audio E-sub e110 Head-fi and reference Bakoon HPA-21 | Audeze LCD-3 (f) Power and isolation Dedicated power line | Xentek extreme isolation transformer (1KVA, balanced) | Uptone Audio EtherREGEN + Ferrum Hypsos | Sonore OpticalModule + Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2 | Jensen CI-1RR Cables Jorma Digital XLR (digital), Grimm Audio SQM RCA (analog), Kimber 8TC + WBT (speakers), custom star-quad with Oyaide connectors (AC), Ferrum (DC) and Ghent (ethernet) Software dCS Mosaic | Tidal | Qobuz Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 2 hours ago, pkane2001 said: Test: The test will be fairly simple: play music using a PC (iMac) over USB cables, A or B, directly into the DAC. When will you finally get it , that to hear details such as this ,you can't use any nondescript PC, or worse still a stock standard Mac Mini, which as many members have already verified markedly improves after an Uptone Linear PSU designed by the talented John Swenson is fitted to replace the original SMPS . It may be news to you, but it isn't to many 100s of A.S. members that the front end DOES matter ! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
ray-dude Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 If helpful, if someone were willing to loan me an appropriate ADC, I'm happy to devote an afternoon to capturing files from these tests (both direct from laptop, and from an optimized source) I would then ask one of the civilians in the house to rename the files and load them for playback, and report whether I can hear differences between them. As a bonus, I'm doing a lot with upsampling for signal reconstruction. It would be interesting to have quality ADC captures of 1fs content vs 16fs content and see what the ADC shows us. (note: this is an OS X house, so I'd appreciate if any loaners have capture software that runs on OS X, although I could check around for a windows laptop if need be) pkane2001 1 ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers Link to comment
davide256 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 1 hour ago, pkane2001 said: This started as a proposal for an internet blind test on another thread: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62140-asr-audio-science-review-forum-youtube-channel/?do=findComment&comment=1113069 @PeterSt's Lush^2 cable against a generic USB cable, used to generate a recording that can then be tested by others. Claim: Lush^2 produces an obviously audible difference that can be detected 10 out of 10 times by Peter and others in a blind test Test: The test will be fairly simple: play music using a PC (iMac) over USB cables, A or B, directly into the DAC. Feed the analog output from the DAC into a quality pro ADC (Apogee Element24, which I've tested and measured before and know it measures well) and record this to a digital file. Rename and randomize the samples and upload them for a listening test. I can even publish measurements for these afterwards, if there's interest. Those hearing obvious differences can use an AB or ABX comparator that produces a digitally signed result and the result can then be shared when reporting your findings (FooBar ABX comparator, for example, also DeltaWave and a few others that I've seen). You're welcome to use any other testing mechanism if you want to listen for yourself, but your results will be harder to be confirmed by others. Lush^2 cable will be configured as follows, per Peter: A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R Before setting up the test, I'd to solicit any ideas here on how to improve the test and methodology, so please post your thoughts, concerns, and ideas here. Test as proposed is invalid because of added "whisper chain" errors. needs to be done live, not "Memorex" I have about 8 other USB cables running between $10~$200... the ones with brit press recommendations were a waste of money, as was the belkin cable. Wireworld starlight is my second best but it doesn't resolve as well as Lush 2 All the chatter about different shield configurations hasn't panned out for me, don't really hear a difference I could hear the difference with Gungnir MB and Chord mojo(using AQ micro USB adaptor). Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 22 minutes ago, sandyk said: When will you finally get it , that to hear details such as this ,you can't use any nondescript PC, or worse still a stock standard Mac Mini, which as many members have already verified markedly improves after an Uptone Linear PSU designed by the talented John Swenson is fitted to replace the original SMPS . It may be news to you, but it isn't to many 100s of A.S. members that the front end DOES matter ! I'll use a battery powered laptop, which I normally use for measurements. There's no AC interference and no ground loops. I just ran a J-Test through the whole chain (PC->DAC->ADC->PC) to see if noise and jitter are a concern. Looks clean to me. Not sure where the -140dBFS spike is coming from at 250Hz but that's tiny anyway. The DAC is Holo Audio Spring v1 (with updated USB). -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, davide256 said: Test as proposed is invalid because of added "whisper chain" errors. needs to be done live, not "Memorex" Can you explain why this might be the case? -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
danadam Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 26 minutes ago, sandyk said: When will you finally get it , that to hear details such as this ,you can't use any nondescript PC, or worse still a stock standard Mac Mini @PeterSt, I think you forgot to include this information on the product page. ;-) PeterSt 1 Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 11 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: I'll use a battery powered laptop, which I normally use for measurements. There's no AC interference and no ground loops. I just ran a J-Test through the whole chain (PC->DAC->ADC->PC) to see if noise and jitter are a concern. Looks clean to me. Not sure where the -140dBFS spike is coming from at 250Hz but that's tiny anyway. The DAC is Holo Audio Spring v1 (with updated USB). Battery-powered audiophile tea pot? 😁 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
davide256 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Just now, pkane2001 said: Can you explain why this might be the case? Sure. 1) you are limiting/coloring results by the digital capture solution 2) any tester is adding limitations/coloring results by the solution they use to do a second generation decoding We use 2nd hand observation for places we can't go like Mars, but that always flawed compared to 1st hand direct observation which provides more sensory data. sandyk 1 Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 1 minute ago, botrytis said: Battery-powered audiophile tea pot? 😁 If it's not a product yet, it must be made! -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: If it's not a product yet, it must be made! 🤣 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, davide256 said: Sure. 1) you are limiting/coloring results by the digital capture solution 2) any tester is adding limitations/coloring results by the solution they use to do a second generation decoding We use 2nd hand observation for places we can't go like Mars, but that always flawed compared to 1st hand direct observation which provides more sensory data. Well, that's easy to verify (and has been done before, just not with this ADC). I'll run multiple iterations of the recording in a loop through the ADC, and if you can hear the difference, then the "coloring" is significant. If you can't, then it's audibly transparent. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
audiobomber Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Looking forward to the test. I had an Oyaide Class S (silver) USB cable in-house for a couple of weeks, couldn't stand the overly bright sound in my system. I replaced it with a cheaper Oyaide Class A (copper) cable, which did the trick. I don't understand how someone would not be able to tell these two apart. OTOH, I couldn't hear a difference between the Oyaide Class A and a Curious cable I acquired subsequently. Unfortunately, printer cables, of which I've tried many, don't compete with these, IME. I've never heard a Lush cable. Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 12 minutes ago, audiobomber said: Looking forward to the test. I had an Oyaide Class S (silver) USB cable in-house for a couple of weeks, couldn't stand the overly bright sound in my system. I replaced it with a cheaper Oyaide Class A (copper) cable, which did the trick. I don't understand how someone would not be able to tell these two apart. OTOH, I couldn't hear a difference between the Oyaide Class A and a Curious cable I acquired subsequently. Unfortunately, printer cables, of which I've tried many, don't compete with these, IME. That's what I'm hearing from others. If these differences are so obvious and audible, they shouldn't be hard to capture and to reproduce. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
audiobomber Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 1 minute ago, pkane2001 said: That's what I'm hearing from others. If these differences are so obvious and audible, they shouldn't be hard to capture and to reproduce. I have no doubt there is some compromise in the ADC conversion, but I expect not enough that some of us will still be able to tell the difference. I base this on ripping my LP collection using a Korg DS-DAC-10R. The vinyl sounded better, but it wasn't easy to tell the original from the 88/24 copy. pkane2001 1 Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
audiobomber Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Please make sure the components are properly warmed up before recording. Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, audiobomber said: Please make sure the components are properly warmed up before recording. Yep. When testing, I usually have things warmed up for at least a few hours before doing any critical listening or measuring. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
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