ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[The Computer Audiophile]

38 minutes ago, plissken said:

I'll drop another truth bomb for everyone here.

 

In true objective fashion, you've dropped what you believe is a truth bomb without any context, then made a subjective conclusion based on 1/10th of the facts. Well done. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

P.S. There is no way anyone, including me the owner of this site, can gather truthful statistics like that on AS. Average time on site? Given that 45% of our users enable blocking of all tracking mechanisms, the fact that we removed all tracking code, and people using encrypted DNS in browsers like Firefox. it just isn't possible. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

That's an interesting rebuttal.

Do you know how Alexa collects stats? It says much more about the users browsing than it does the site. Alexa is famous for using web browser plug-ins to collect this info. I'd say the AS crowd isn't known to have a lot of browser plugins that send info to Amazon. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Good, bad, or indifferent Amir has obviously struck a chord. The Alexa rankings are hard, objective, data. Going by that same data and the increasing trend line it represents only means there's an increasing audience for his content.

 

I don't see how I'm missing any context. Look at the dwell time in comparison to page view and then the bounce rate. It means that people are staying on pages longer. As it turns out humans (at least in the audio hobby) don't apparently have the attention span of a turnip.

Again, this data isn't accurate for AS. I have no idea about his data, his users, or what is enabled over there to allow collection of data. 

 

The sites are like apples and oranges. I have zero interest in recording the measurements for 500 DAC that all measure below the threshold of human hearing. I went down the path of getting an AP, but soon discovered there really isn't anything to measure that's of interest to music listeners. There is a large engineering crowd interested in stuff like that and also on DIY audio sites. that isn't AS type of stuff. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

I'm telling posters here that what ever it is he's doing it's working. I would personally take a page out of his play book:

 

 

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

It certainly wouldn't hurt to expand your audience draw.... I'd be all for that content here. It's partly why I thought you ordered an AP and started the Objectify sub-forum.

 

I was going to go down that path, but there's nothing to see there. If I wanted to expand my audience at all costs like that, I'd start covering very inexpensive products like ASR. I just don't have an interest in that stuff.

 

Walmart has a lot of customers. That doesn't mean Target should emulate them just to get more people. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

This is an interesting introspection. I gotta ask why not? Or asked another way you only have interest in providing insight into really expensive gear?

I care a lot about things that just can’t be done inexpensively. Build quality, first class support, companies that cater to this niche, product / component sourcing, model longevity, etc...

[The Computer Audiophile]

33 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

What is your metric for this? If Alexa rankings can't be trusted then I think that same shoe fits here.

 

I now have a $460 SMSL SU-9 DAC.  My prior Emotiva DC-1 was going on 10 years old and still going strong. This would also not fit your criteria as far as price. Both worked right out of the box and zero problems.

 

Not everything can be boiled down to a metric. 

 

As an example of what I mean when I talk about things that just can't be done inexpensively, look at what dCS does. Very low volume, high build quality, great product support, models updated for at least ten years via software/firmware, all built and sourced in the UK, fit and finish is exquisite, helped created the DoP standard, thus offering it long before other companies even thought to copy it, same with asynchronous USB, employees paid living wages, etc...

 

I don't think I'm being crazy here. This all seems pretty straight forward. I don't value high prices, I value things that end up contributing to higher prices. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, plissken said:

Amir has a preference for a 'clean martini'

Preferences aren’t objective. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

What DCS does is done all over the place by other manufacturers all the time. For $14,000 to $40,000 I like to throw in a 10 year software / firmware guarantee also.

You ever see the Bourne Identity were he gets a ride for $10K and the driver likes to throw in a coffee and croissant too? 

 

I would say that RME, Matrix Audio, Benchmark all have engineers that don't arrive at work on a short yellow bus. Maybe their marketers do....

 

I'll put this out there: If a DCS measures the same I've no problem submitting it and another like measuring unit to a blind test. I'll take a Matrix Audio X Sabre Pro at $2K and if I need to in 10 years time spend another $2K for the unit with the updated software.

Please stick to the facts. Objective data rather than anecdotes. 
 

please tell me which Benchmark product models have been available for purchase new for 10 years and received new features via firmware, not just bug fixes. 
 

Facts please. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

There’s more to life than Walmart and blind testing. You get your tea from a local shop @plissken . Why? Walmart has it cheaper. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

Hell maybe my preference would be for the Yggy. I haven't heard one as of yet.  So I haven't made any statements about actual sound. Just what the data shows.

Here’s the thing. You would never listen to it because you don’t like it’s measurements. That’s not living, in my book. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

 

I just stated the facts: I can get anywhere from 7 to 20 Matrix Audio Sabre X Pro's for the cost of various DCS DAC's. I'll take my chances with the 'sub par' support, build quality, reliability, software updates.

 

If 10 year's of software updates is worth $12,000 to $38,000 premium to anyone, whom I to argue?  Knock yourself out.

You’re moving the goalposts, then dismissing what I value and the items that cost real dollars. 
 

Im still waiting on facts rather than preferences. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

 

The same teas that both carry walmart MAY have it cheaper. But often they don't since I purchase 150 grams loose leaf the local tea shop is generally priced better and they have 120+ variety lining the walls that Walmart doesn't.

Have you blind tested them? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

By the way, there’s a new black tea I have on the way. It looks like it could be fantastic. I’ll let you know :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

 

I answered your question:

 

"

If 10 year's of software updates is worth $12,000 to $38,000 premium to anyone, whom I to argue?  Knock yourself out.

"

You conveniently forgot all the other items I listed, that also make up the cost difference. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, plissken said:

Some yes: Celestial Seasoning Chai Rooibos and their Peppermint suck compared to my local tea shop. Also the local shop has a mix call Bashford Bedtime Brew that is just killer.

 

I'll send you some to see what you think.

 

Here’s the one I have on order, based on recommendation from another member of the community. 
 

https://www.kuchatea.com/product/Golden Eyebrow Black Tea/2169

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

No I haven't forgot. I just see them as red herrings after having a $499 10 year old DAC that is still working just fine. That includes channel balance, DC offset, and ac ripple

 

What good are software updates for a stable device? My point being is why spend $14,000 to $40,000 now when I could spend $2K every three years and be driving a brand new DAC with all the improvements?

That’s where we differ big time, but I don’t ridicule you for not caring about build quality, responsible product sourcing, local jobs, etc...

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

His recommendation are based on being a well engineered product (or not).

Not at all. We had this discussion previously in another thread. Ranking items based on measurements is a disservice and has nothing to do with being well engineered when the "top" 70% of DACs don't have any issues that humans can hear. 

 

Is it a good design decision to spend more money on engineering, thus making the product cost more, if all that it gets you is a lower nose floor that is even further below the level of human hearing? To the objective crowd, such a device deserves to be ranked better than another product, even though to humans there can be no difference when listening (according to them).

 

It's all about pleasing themselves, not educating consumers.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Noted but I still don't understand this over fascination on his SINAD chart.

 

He provides a heck of a lot more measurements below his SINAD chart and is not shy to point out measurement issues, even if the SINAD is over 110dB...

 

I previously shared an example of the DAC with high output impedance... maybe a way to "cheat" to achieve their high SINAD? He called them out...

 

 

This seems to be focusing just on DACs? He has moved well past measuring just DACs , onto amps and the things that make sound - speakers and headphones.

 

The latter are also the things with highest distortion measurements...

 

If he was just measuring DACs I would understand some of these comments.

 

But Schiit Audio seemed to listen? They are sending DACs to him now and measuring well ?

 

So an engineering improvement happened right?

Doesn’t matter the product. People who like engineering beyond all else will rank products based on measurements that people can’t hear. Distortion of 0.00000000000001% is technically lower than 0.00000000000002% but nobody in their right mind should care. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, patagent said:

it seems like a lot of companies upped their engineering game as a result of these published measurements.

Let’s stick to facts. How many is “a lot” and which companies?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, asdf1000 said:

 

The product type does matter. Those numbers don't apply to amps, speakers, headphones.

 

Funnily enough, people involved in engineering products that make sound are active on his forum.

 

KEF Engineering boss is there and happy with Amir's KEF R3 measurements.

 

Genelec Senior Engineer is there and very happy with Amir's Genelecs measurements.

 

Dan Clarke is there and happy with Amir's headphone measurement of their products.

 

Dr. Sean Olive and Dr. Floyd Toole are there and happy with his ideas of what are good speaker and headphone measurements to aim for.

 

Rob Watts would be happy with Amir's measurement of his Qutest DAC...

 

All the above are engineers involved in state of the art products that make sound.

 

Schiit Audio are now sending Amir gear.

 

 

 

Amps don’t have distortion? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Distortion at these levels?  

 

"Distortion of 0.00000000000001% is technically lower than 0.00000000000002% but nobody in their right mind should care. "

 

 

I wrote "Those numbers don't apply to amps, speakers, headphones."

 

 

I used numbers like that as an illustration. The number of decimals places doesn’t matter to those who value numbers above all else and to those who aren’t interested in educating consumers. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, asdf1000 said:

 

And when I write the below, at what point does the whinging and complaining about Amir seem a bit silly?

 

We are well passed DACs now and into the area of things producing sound.

 

 

 

"Funnily enough, people involved in engineering products that make sound are active on his forum.

 

KEF Engineering boss is there and happy with Amir's KEF R3 measurements.

 

Genelec Senior Engineer is there and very happy with Amir's Genelecs measurements.

 

Dan Clarke is there and happy with Amir's headphone measurement of their products.

 

Dr. Sean Olive and Dr. Floyd Toole are there and happy with his ideas of what are good speaker and headphone measurements to aim for.

 

Rob Watts would be happy with Amir's measurement of his Qutest DAC...

 

All the above are engineers involved in state of the art products that make sound.

 

Schiit Audio are now sending Amir gear."

 

 

 

I don’t follow. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, botrytis said:

@The Computer Audiophileif you like black tea - I can recommend....

 

Monks Blend Tea | Monks Breakfast Blend Black Tea – Art of Tea 

Thanks!

 

this is my go-to - https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black?variant=32272619372657

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

If the Engineers of products we love are active on the forum and happy with Amir's measurements at what point does it seem silly that consumers of these products complain that measurements aren't everything?

 

In addition to the products I mentioned, Genelec, Neumann, KRK, RME, Focusrite (Gen3), Motu - these are some of the biggest names making the gear that make the music we listen to... getting recommendations by Amir.

Good engineering behind the products we love and behind the music we love.

 

What is the issue with Amir here?

 

It really makes no sense now.

 

 

 

 

 

I still do t follow your logic. 300 Chinese DACs for $500 all measure great. If those engineers are on a site, why should I care?

 

Other engineers are interested in numbers and making sure their products are accurately portrayed online. That has absolutely nothing to do with the bigger picture. 
 

People who enjoy that stuff should go have fun with it.