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asdf1000

By asdf1000
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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Audiophiles Anonymous?

 

Or Audioholics or Avatar Anonymous.?

 

Or maybe Audioscientists Anonymous..? x-D

 

Some impressions from the ASR site and their youtube channel, which I've just visited.

 

I must admit I'm not a huge fan of 'Audiophile Style' name but 'Audio Science' phrase just makes me laugh. Amir, judging by fragments of two youtube clips that I quickly checked out seems pretty nice though. Even though he's not a woman. Anyway I will never trust a guy with a female avatar. I'm serious (I don't mind the Pink Panther toy though). I will also never trust an audiophile/his system if all the cables sound the same to him/on it. They don't. I won't express my views on Audioquest Wind (I quickly checked the review) cause I haven't heard this cable. OTOH while buying my 'desktop' speakers I happened to check KRK Rokit 6 also reviewed by Amir. BTW IMO JBL LSR 305's sounded better (which I regretted cause I have lots of sympathy for KRK's and their Focal drivers) but Adam Audio T5V's sound IMHO was even more refined (they are slightly more expensive though). Anyway, having quite lots of experience with comparative listening tests as an ex dealer I had spent probably 40min in an Amsterdam shop's listening room choosing among these three. Amir didn't need that much time..

 

So what about his KRK Rokit 6 review and listening test.? Let me quote it.

 

Here's the descriptive/objective measurements part of it:

........................................................................................................................

"This is a review and detailed measurements of the KRK ROKIT 5 Gen 4 active studio monitor (speaker). It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $176 each from Amazon including Prime shipping.

I think these yellow drivers look cute image.gif.df57c103601da449ab15b9162f90e027.gif:  



Nice to see the cabinet sides curved to reduce diffraction. A small waveguide is provided another tweeter:



Given the small woofer, it is probably sufficient.

You can't see it here since the unit is not powered up but despite being a cheap black and white LCD, I was surprised at its usability (JBL, are you listening?):
 



There is an App that lets you pair with it and apply equalization. I did not test that. On that note, all measurements and listening tests were performed at factory setting.

Measurements that you are about to see were performed using the Klippel Near-field Scanner (NFS). This is a robotic measurement system that analyzes the speaker all around and is able (using advanced mathematics and dual scan) to subtract room reflections (so where I measure it doesn't matter). It also measures the speaker at close distance ("near-field") which sharply reduces the impact of room noise. Both of these factors enable testing in ordinary rooms yet results that can be more accurate than an anechoic chamber. In a nutshell, the measurements show the actual sound coming out of the speaker independent of the room.

I performed over 1000 measurement which resulted in error rate of around 1%.

Measurement temperature was 63 degrees. Left the heater on overnight by accident. Probably cost me $5 in heating bill!

Reference axis was center of the tweeter.

Measurements are compliant with latest speaker research into what can predict the speaker preference and is standardized in CEA/CTA-2034 ANSI specifications. Likewise listening tests are performed per research that shows mono listening is much more revealing of differences between speakers than stereo or multichannel.

KRK ROKIT 5 Gen 4 Measurements
Acoustic measurements can be grouped in a way that can be perceptually analyzed to determine how good a speaker is and how it can be used in a room. This so called spinorama shows us just about everything we need to know about the speaker with respect to tonality and some flaws:
 



The on-axis may look a bit messy to the eye but really, if you zoom out a bit, it is more or less flat. We do have a port interference around 680 Hz which is common with front ports:



Back to spin graph, directivity is good. Tweeter has some ups and downs as we also see in the drive response.

Early window shows a drop in mid-range but also a droop in highs which is not bad a thing:
 



As noted, floor (and ceiling) reflection are the issue here so put some absorber there or keep that path length long.

Predicted in-room response in far field shows what we already know:
 



Beamwidth is surprisingly good:



This small woofer is mating well with that wave-guided tweeter. The sharp narrowing toward the end is probably not a bad thing to take away extra sharpness.

We see the same in our contour plot:



Vertical response is typical of these two-way speakers so stay at or slightly above tweeter axis to avoid the holes at 2 to 3 kHz:
 



Waterfall shows some resonances:
 



We see the prominent one around 680 Hz which we observed in spin graph just as well.

Distortion is quite good actually at 86 dBSPL, and horrible at 96, the latter of which I could hear during testing:



I am going to show the 96 dB graph in absolute form as I always do. Question: should I switch to using 86 dB in the future for smaller speakers? It will make it harder to then compare all speakers together.
 

 
..............................................................................................................................................
 
Stop here please!!!!!!!!!
 
A reminder - according to Amir he had performed over 1000 measurements!
 
OTOH here are his listening impressions:
 
...............................................................................................................................................

"I only needed 10 seconds of listening to my standard first reference track to know the sound was right. Very nice tonality which continued to deliver just the same through the rest of my tracks."

................................................................................................................................................

 

That's it. Seriously.

 

I have to admit I have a problem with the review proportions like that. Not only because I can tell much, much more about not only KRK's but also about the above mentioned JBL's and obviously Adam Audio's which I had bought - I'm almost obliged to, after spending with all three of them 4 quarters of an hour, and not simply judging them after 10 seconds - but also because:

 

I don't buy audio equipment to measure it (I don't mind if it measures good of course though), maybe I'm weird but I buy it to listen to the music. I never measure it, maybe some do but I turn it on when I want to listen to some music.

I also don't measure cars, I drive them (although I like to know how much power they have cause I know the difference eg between 200bhp and 100bhp cars which are similar in size).

I watch movies on TVs I buy, I don't measure them as well (except from the fact that I'm interested in their size before buying them).

BTW I also don't measure women (but I must admit here I'm a little bit interested in their size - I have a preference for slim ones), I ask them about their size if I want to buy them eg some lingerie, next I quickly forget about it though. Anyway never in my life I have measured a woman.. I do some other things with them though.

 

But it's probably only me. I guess ASR readers do the opposite...

 

Edit: I'm neither a sexist nor I objectify women, some exaggeration in the above examples was intended.

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

At least he listened to these speakers for 10 seconds before he decided all was good.

 

I think one might have some problem with the fact that people who will eventually buy speakers that a reviewer listened to for 10 seconds in some cases will listen to them for the rest of their lives :D

 

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted

 

@The Computer Audiophile   @Kal Rubinson , if I may ask, guys:

1. What's the average time you spend on listening to speakers or other gear while reviewing it.?

2. How often the initial impressions from, let's say the first minute of listening are all you have to say after your listening tests about how particular gear sounds and can be expressed in one sentence.?

 

I'm just trying to show something which is pretty obvious to me.. 

 

Edit: Ps. Here's link to the original review, couldn't embed the beautiful png graphs:

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/krk-rokit-5-gen-4-review-studio-monitor.20711/

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Amir uses the ban hammer quickly.

 

I may be tempted to check him in this regard soon x-D

 

9 minutes ago, plissken said:

ASR

image.png.7e31f060c0a09eff99ea0a6379008ad0.png

 

AS

image.png.dc55cfe3e762e765305a8582449fbc63.png

 

I'm somehow not surprised, Fiats are also more popular than Porsches..:D

I don't know - maybe there is even a rule (that would probably work in case of my subjective ranking) - the more popular the site, the more probable that (subjectively - for me) sh...y it is. Definitely works in case of FB where I needed (due to some business plans) to register a couple of months ago..

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

This is the false equivalency that ASR threads often revolve around.  AS and ASR cost exactly the same unlike Fiats and Porches.

 

No if we made Fiats and Porches the same price you let me know which you would buy.

 

I meant popularity vs quality factor, didn't take prices into account. Read the whole post.

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, plissken said:

Here is your post in it's entirety in case you misremember some more:

 

I don't like to quote myself but since you're asking: 

 

27 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

I'm somehow not surprised, Fiats are also more popular than Porsches..:D

I don't know - maybe there is even a rule (that would probably work in case of my subjective ranking) - the more popular the site, the more probable that (subjectively - for me) sh...y it is. Definitely works in case of FB where I needed (due to some business plans) to register a couple of months ago..

 

 

How about getting back on topic.?

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I generally keep a review sample in-and-out of the system for about 60 days.

 

Only if it is terrible but, even then, it takes more time to (1) determine if there's something more I can do to improve it with regard to setup changes and (2) to be able to condense and define the impressions.  Competent stuff takes more time to characterize.

 

Thank you, I hope everyone gets my point.

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted

 

IME measurements often correlate with results of listening tests, in many cases - don't or they don't explain the listening impressions.

I often say - I've never heard two identically sounding cables but I've heard two audio devices identical inside and sounding different (Marantz and Philips stuff, Marantz was obviously more expensive and sounded better) :)

As for buying gear I start with trustworthy magazines or journalists (and there aren't many of these) and mainly their listening tests results.

I had used a tube amp which sounded great and which possibly (judging by similar ones) had THD of 3% or more..

I loved it. Quite subjectively..:)

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I have no idea what your  point is because I was not following this thread.

 

No need to, I know you get it but I was worried about some other folks.

 

And here..

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

 

IME measurements often correlate with results of listening tests, in many cases - don't or they don't explain the listening impressions.

I often say - I've never heard two identically sounding cables but I've heard two audio devices identical inside and sounding different (Marantz and Philips stuff, Marantz was obviously more expensive and sounded better) :)

As for buying gear I start with trustworthy magazines or journalists (and there aren't many of these) and mainly their listening tests results.

I had used a tube amp which sounded great and which possibly (judging by similar ones) had THD of 3% or more..

I loved it. Quite subjectively..:)

 

..my point is - IMO there is no audio science that really works.

Maybe yet.

 

 

33 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

As an example of what I mean when I talk about things that just can't be done inexpensively, look at what dCS does. Very low volume, high build quality, great product support, models updated for at least ten years via software/firmware, all built and sourced in the UK, fit and finish is exquisite, helped created the DoP standard, thus offering it long before other companies even thought to copy it, same with asynchronous USB, employees paid living wages, etc...

 

And it even sounds good..9_9

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, Don Hills said:

 

I was surprised to see that listed as a positive attribute. ☺️

 

I don't know what it looks like now but IME gear 'Proudly Made in the UK' used to be the least reliable one. Remember a customer who pressed a $10k DPA DAC button and all its buttons collapsed inside :D

 

7 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I remember when every Jaguar came with a free oil spot.

 

And when Aston Martin was beginning to make their multi hundred kilo pounds top model, they hired quality specialists from Toyota, cause they knew that the third door slamming of a British car, regardless of its price tag, may happen be the one after they fall off :D

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Here’s the one I have on order, based on recommendation from another member of the community. 
 

https://www.kuchatea.com/product/Golden Eyebrow Black Tea/2169

 

The review sounds a little like a review of a gunpowder tea. It also looks quite similar, apart from the fact that it is not ball shaped. It looks green not black.

 

23 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

The opening post of this thread is addressed to Teresa, a woman....

 

Even with your "edit" added, do you think this edit would make your mother, sister etc comfortable, with what you wrote before your edit?

 

A bit of class would be nice. Especially when the opening post is addressed to a woman !!

 

Thank you for your lesson. I believe I have a mutually positive and friendly relationship with @Teresa

Obviously (at least seemingly) my remark was more than 50% joke.

I don't have a sister.

As for my mother, I'm afraid she wouldn't be comfortable with about 60% of my everyday thoughts and it's ok that way.

 

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted

A question (from a guy whose only measuring tool is measuring tape 9_9) for those who know something about Amir. A serious one. He admits that not only measuring of the KRKs has cost him $5 in electricity bill but also that he had spent $28k (I think) on AP gear. What is the price range of his audio (scientific, I hope..;)) system.? I'm just curious..

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted

  

 

4 hours ago, plissken said:

I'm sure he has a pretty penny tied up in audio gear. If you are curious about specifics I would encourage you to register and ask.

 

No need to, he lists it openly: 

 

Mark Levinson amplifiers and DAC.

Revel Salon 2 Speakers

Berkeley Alpha USB->AES/EBU converter

Windows 10, silent, custom PC music server

Roon Music Management

Tidal Music Streaming   

 

(it's a pretty serious gear, I'm quite surprised the guy can't hear eg differences between cables on this system..)

 

I don't know the ASR site, just been checking Amir's speakers review list. This is nonsense. Not only for me - for him as well, although he probably doesn't know it yet.

I'm taking into account the KRK Rokit 5 which review I posted to here, JBL 305 and Adam Audio T5V which I prefered out of these three. 

BTW Amir also liked them a lot and wrote in their review: 'Really, I live for days like this. Discovering a budget speaker that exceeds your expectations and produces great sound with almost no faults.' IMO he is right - these are really good speakers in their very low price range. They are also quite forgiving as far the quality of of components connected to them is regarded and even for such 'killer' formats like mp3 which on my main system is simply unlistenable. They do everything I expected my 'desktop' speakers to do. 

And to KRKs, JBLs and AAs I will add ...Kef Ls50 which I and I believe also many here as well know quite well. Still very good in their price range (4-5 x more expensive than the earlier mentioned transducers) - IMO of course but I'm sure many will agree.

Here comes the nonsense part.

The KRK's get the score of 3.6 according to Amir and I'm ok with that - they were IMO the worst of the three active speakers I compared with each other. Adam Audios which  both me and Amir preferred to JBLs get 4.2 points. I might be ok with that if it wasn't for the fact that the JBLs get 4.6 points... This is the moment in which he clearly shows he prefers speakers with the lower score - AAs..

But we are only half way into the nonsense at this point, cause..

..Kef LS50 which are absolutely and definitely speakers offering much higher sound quality than any of the three mentioned earlier... also get 4.6 points - just like JBLs... O.o

In addition Kali LP6 (which I haven't heard and Amir prefered much more AAs to them - check the review and his comparisons also with JBLs) costing ..$150 get ...5.2 Audio Science Review points which means they should sound even better than Kefs..O.o

What does it prove.? It proves clearly there is absolutely no correlation between Amir's measurements and sound quality, even sound quality subjectively perceived by Amir.

I think it also shows why in my very first post here I wrote:

 

23 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

'Audio Science' phrase just makes me laugh

 

Thank you, for me the topics of both Audio Science and their 'Reviews' are closed :)

 

 

 

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sphinxsix

sphinxsix

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

FYI you can routinely get the 308p MKII for $189. JBL put's the on sale often. The T5V are $200 normally. Just saying. The 305P MKII can be had for $125 per sometimes.  Just some ROI info.

 

What do you think about the other things I said?

 

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