ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

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1 hour ago, JoeWhip said:

I knew Amir back in the HD DVD days when I was doing video reviews. Seemed like a nice bloke. The problem I have with ASR is with all these reviews, he basically only does some measurements. He comments on DACs but doesn’t even take the time to listen to them and do comparisons. I believe in measurements but make my final decisions after listening. At least he listened to these speakers for 10 seconds before he decided all was good.

I disagree. I think that he should only do the measurements.

 

Yes there are lots of alt-objectivists on ASR but there’s also a small number of very knowledgeable and open-minded people who make it worth visiting; that and the measurements.

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4 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have no problems with measurements. I believe in them along with listening. I have participated in blind listening tests of DACs and ICs and PCs. In some I and others heard a difference, many times not. Always interesting. Nuff said.

I don’t find other people’s personal opinion and listening experience very useful.

I prefer to use measurements to shortlist equipment worth auditioning and then perform my own assessment.

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3 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I don’t disagree, but I would think that you should listen too, no? Amir doesn’t listen, just goes by the numbers, which may or may not tell the true story.

You can ignore his comments and opinions. It’s what I do.

There’s valuable information in the data that he collects.

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6 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

What do you mean he just goes by numbers?

 

He shares numbers but how does that suggest he "goes by" them?

 

 

Actually I find that he is too caught up in SINAD and Spinorama and resulting Predicted Preference rating, both of which are manifestly insufficient to characterise performance.

It’s a simplistic approach which ultimately is not that different from a star-rating system.

 

Rating systems are very appealing to that slice of the market which lacks the confidence and the knowledge to perform its choices and finds comfort in an easier way to deal with consumption.

From that perspective the Spinorama is an excellent marketing tool.

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8 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Noted but I'm really not sure what is so complicated about looking past the SINAD measurement (which all manufacturers specify btw in the form of THD+N %, so it is one of many checks for does it do what the manufacturer says ) and looking at all the other measurements he does and considering (not relying) all , on the whole.

 

I think readers (both pro-ASR and anti-ASR) seem to get more caught up in the SINAD chart than he does and forget a lot of the other very useful measurements.

 

I use a Focusrite  Gen3 interface which has a SINAD of just over 100dB (both DAC and ADC) .

 

I don't feel like I need to sell that for a Okto multichannel interface for the highest SINAD on the chart. I think 100dB is competent... and other measurements shows good performance.

 

The SINAD game is only annoying to people that seem to put so much emphasis on it. It puzzles me to be honest.

 

There are other important measurements which he shares fortunately.

 

I have to ask again, I'm not sure why people want LESS 3rd party verification in the world when he have so many examples of manufacturers not delivery what they say

 

I'm not at all interested in comparison charts. I just want to know it does what it says on the box.

 

I’m grateful that he is performing measurements but the accompanying preaching is unhelpful and unnecessary.

And often he has to be hard pressed in order to move his stance or perform extra measurements.

 

Still I filter out the noise coming from his flock of believers and focus on those who know what they’re talking about.

There’s a lot of narrow-mindedness and parroting which is annoying.

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On 2/27/2021 at 4:12 PM, PeterSt said:

If you put up such a test then you'd be doing the very same as Amir. You may like his methods, but I blatantly disagree. Amir laughs his ass out over the back of Alex Crespi, and all contestants will laugh their asses out over the customers who'd also may score a 10/10 in their homes. They (Lush users) will of course join too (I won't) and they all will score 5/5. And Paul is laughing and laughing and laughing because finally he is right.

After changing the goal posts.

 

It doesn't work like that.

This reminds me of Toole’s proposed theory that listening to speakers in mono is more discriminating because the rating differences were larger than when the assessment of the same three speakers was performed in stereo.

What seems to have happened is that the listening panel was coached to prefer wide dispersion and rated this type of speaker higher when in mono because it produced increased envelopment than narrow dispersion models.

This is called science.

 

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1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

So a Server board in there, that 28 or 32 core Xeon processor, running at 500Mhz (settable) and of course with a Linear PSU inside. Oh all passive. No watercooling either. wait, not even heatsinks (except for the CPU heatsink). CPU 60 degrees C max. Weight 13Kg.

No room heater at all.

 

Are you opting for that many cores and low speed to keep the heat down?

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2 hours ago, plissken said:

I'm operating from the POV that servers are servers and not end point's with direct connection to a DAC.

 

What about a server which serves a processing computer that DSPs into a buffering endpoint?

 

@PeterSt defends that his method of having the DSP-processing computer directly feeding the DAC is the best approach.

He seems to be doing with his DSP-processing computer what Miska does with the endpoint which is to avoid generating noise which can affect the D/A conversion.

Different ways to skin an apple?

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3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Riccardo, I am sure you have it right, but the first sentence is in error. The DSP processing computer would be feeding the Audio playing computer. And the latter does about nothing (virtually no CPU usage visible at 32/768 playback).

 

I didn't realise that you were using two computers.

 

So your first computer does the heavy-lifting upconversion and the second computer is a buffer?

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3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Right. Which is where good 3rd party measurements can help...

 

I'm actually not interested in debating whether someone else (beside me) should be for measurements or not.

 

I'm only going back and forth on this because someone labelled me as an ASR defender.

 

But as I mentioned, I've enjoyed the JA part of Stereophile and DS part of SoundStage for the same reasons I like the measurements part of ASR.

 

I don't get caught up in Amir's words and his fans' words and his product rankings.

 

And unlike some others, I don't dismiss him because he doesn't write enough about his subjective impressions.

 

What do you intend to measure and how? SINAD is manifestly insuficient to be of any use...

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8 hours ago, acg said:

PeterSt does not have a DSP processing computer, does not use computer based DSP software nor espouse its use.  This whole conversation is a tangent of magnificent proportions willingly caused by a malignant poster revelling in the echo of their own voice, who neither understands the concepts involved, has any experience in the area nor is seeking anything but disruption.

 

Isn't PeterSt's XXHighend software upconverting to 24/768?

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Just now, asdf1000 said:

 

Lol back in the first few pages of this thread I already wrote about this including my thoughts on people's obsession with SINAD.

 

I was being sarcastic. I'm not very good at it.

 

A simplistic approach will lead nowhere.

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52 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

No, the upconversion / filtering is so lean, that nothing will need "heavy lift" that (CPU usage is still virtually zero).

 

 

So Yes. But now you assume XXHighEnd in order, which is special to begin with and is hardly related to the Audio PC. Well, it is because it takes care of power consumption (as in 50W opposed to 120-140W normal) but this is still not related to playback as such.

 

It is easiest if people think of an NAA and for example Roon being at play in that second PC. You'd need provisions in the Audio PC to digest that and make music of it, but that's always the case.

Point in case is that the Audio PC does nothing. Only passing audio samples to the output (e.g. USB). And since there really is more to do, whatever that is, happens in that other PC. Thus, the Audio PC contains really nothing but a processor and RAM. No HDD or SSD or anything. Yes, an Ethernet connection towards the other PC.

 

Something else: Don't underestimate upsampling in that other PC while transferring that over Ethernet. No LAN interface exists (AFAIK) that can swallow the data as audio at those rates. It can as data of course, but then all is different again.

There's much more involved, like the whole lot playing from RAM** (including the OS being booted from RAM). This bring the best sound but also constraints.

 

If you need to know more, please ask @plissken.

 

**): No need to claim that all music plays from RAM.  <-- I just said it myself.

 

Let's see if I got it right: you upconvert to 24/768 and filter with light processor load in the processing computer then load the data over Ethernet into the RAM of the playback computer before feeding the stream over USB into your DAC?

 

So main differences to HQPlayer are:

- light computation from processing computer

- playback computer plays from RAM

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13 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Hahaha, at least I love to talk to someone who is open to everything and eager to know.

But no.

What I tried to say is that the filtering (including upconversion to 32/768 (or 32/705.6)) is so lean that this can be done in the Audio PC indeed.

 

Naa, you didn't say that. You're trying to confuse me.

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14 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

the filtering (including upconversion to 32/768 (or 32/705.6)) is so lean that this can be done in the Audio PC indeed.

 

That is very interesting by the way (the filtering being done in the final step).

So you upconvert and dither with your processing computer and then filter in the playback computer?

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21 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Here, I still have this on-screen for an other thread and a screenshot for it:

 

 

This is during playback (32/705.6 from 16/44.1). Compare with your own system. CPU speed is fixed at 1.14-1.16 GHz (but can be up to 350MHz - as I said earlier, this is settable and changes SQ drastically).

 

The upconversion can be done in that other PC just the same, but we'd lose on (LAN) loading speed. Also, this will destroy the organization it the Audio PC, which will forever work on Garbage Collection. For example, look at the number of running threads (315 in this case).

 

There's infinitely more; Look at the Cores / Logical processors. It tells 10/20, right ? But hey, this processor is a 14/28 ... And No, this was NOT changed in the BIOS. That would sound worse ...

 

Is this for the processing computer or the playback computer (Audio PC)?

If for the latter I don't know how I can compare the CPU use with that of the little Cubox I use as NAA but it's not doing any processing anyway so I don't think it will look bad in the photo.

 

Very impressive that you can get so little "use" when filtering though.

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1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

You seem to assume too much and read too few.

There surely *are* things being done in the processing computer, but only those things which help for my own software (XXHighEnd). I am not talking about Roon Server where all would be different. For example, the processing computer (we call that Music Server PC) takes care that the Audio PC does not process any music as streaming, while actually it is streamed (by the Music Server PC). This with the notice that an Internet connection for any Audio PC (as it is written in my book) is already out of the question, let alone streaming from it which *really* messes up all and deteriorates sound.

The Audio PC is not even allowed to be connected to a switch (oops. *that* story again !!).

 

The above is in detail different from what I said, but else all becomes too long(winded).

 

I am not assuming anything. I am merely asking questions to understand how it works (but realise that you may not wish to disclose your secrets).

 

I don't stream from the internet but from local storage (currently an SSD in a USB enclosure). I have no interest in web-streaming.

With HQPlayer I have a processing computer (using Desktop) and a buffer (using NAA) connected over an audio only (no internet) wired Ethernet network.

 

Your file playback system is different and quite complicated but interesting. I need to get some work done now.

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19 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Ah so you conveniently ignored the Schiit Audio example (early on)?

 

Kudos to them recently though. They've been posting their own APx555 measurements a while now on their own website.

 

And sending stuff to ASR recently.

 

Forgetting about ASR completely - one thing you ignored was the gazzilion times I said I'd love for more manufacturers to post their own set of measurements. Nothing to do with ASR. And you wonder why I need to repeat things. You deliberately ignore points and then question the same points.

 

Rob Watts posted his APx555 Chord Mojo measurements on release, which were quite different to ASR's later (I think he'd just gotten his APx555 at that point). In this case I have no reason to question the designer's own measurements. He was one of the first in Europe to own that model and Amir had just gotten it.
 

Rob Watts saw ASR Mojo measurements and effectively said something like (paraphrasing here): "I don't know what he's doing but it doesn't bode well that his measurements are nothing like my own APx555 measurements".

 

This is why I'd love to see manufacturers post their own measurements.

 

In this case, Rob had the data for all to see to backup his comment. Not just words but his own measurements.

 

I love my Mojo and Hugo2.

 

 

 

Stereophile has been measuring equipment for years and so has Soundstage, and several European magazines.

Why all this excitement with ASR?

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16 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Exactly, I mentioned being a fan of JA and DS at Soundstage just a couple pages back, way before ASR existed.

 

I was referring to your own excitement regarding ASR.

 

ASR has it's qualities and shortcomings as anything else. It produces measurements and has some knowledgeable people posting in the forum. But there's a lot of narrowmindedness and a patronising highbrow attitude which I find annoying and unhelpful. There's also a lot of parroting and me too-ing...

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7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Yes that's exactly what I said obviously. I wrote it. 

 

And here's important added background. I could make the call Amir got it wrong because I had additional 3rd party data to look at to make the call.

 

What I have been saying from the beginning I'd like to see more 3rd party measurements, not less... Common sense says more source is better than just more from Amir.

 

I said numerous times that I have been a fan of Stereophile (JA's measurements) and SoundStage (DS measurements) way before ASR forum existed...

 

In the case of Mojo at the time I had:

 

1. Rob Watts APx555 plots

2. JA's Stereophile's measurements.

3. GoldenEar Japan's APx555 measurements which aligned with Rob Watts

 

i.e. more 3rd party measurements in addition to plots from the DAC designer himself. 

 

Amir adds extra datapoints but I like more.

 

I also mentioned his Mojo measurements were some of his earliest with APx555.

 

Later, his Chord Qutest measurements aligned with Rob Watts and Stereophile. State of the art DAC.

 

And now his measurements align with manufacturer's measurements for KEF R3, Genelec, Neumann, RME, Focurite Sennheiser, Universal Audio, Schiit Audio's newest products etc...

 

 

 

You're quite a fan of Rob Watts.

Are you sure he isn't pushing snake oil?

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41 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Seen 3rd party measurements to show no snake oil ;-)

 

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/chord-hugo-m-scaler-stereophile-review-measurements-also.11868/

 

Not that I agree with the ASR church in regard to upsampling by the way...

 

41 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Kimber Kable however... :-)

 

 

Kimber cable has extremely high capacitance which will produce an audible effect.

 

Some of their prices are ludicrous but so are some of Chord's... It's a transversal problem in domestic audio.

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22 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

I respect your comment. Pricing is not something I brought up in this discussion though.

 

So it's 'problem' of a different kind, for some people.

 

Technical performance, the Chord stuff is very very good (not only because Chord marketing says, but 3rd party measurements). Just like some much more affordable products too.

 

 

Some British manufacturers are able to generate quite a fervent yet blind religious support: Naim, Audio Note, Harbeth, Chord.

Hats off to their outstanding salesmanship abilities!

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8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ahhh, that's why it got this review, then, https://www.whathifi.com/au/chord/mojo/review?

 

... As we all know, measurements tell us everything important about the subjective performance, right? ... 😜

 

Not everything. Which is why we need more and better measurements.

Some people enjoy lesser technical performance but an equal number of people enjoys higher fidelity. It's a matter of personal preference, which is why it's called subjective performance.

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23 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

We don't want to be sold fake news.... It's natural for these people to be defensive - either their own feelings are hurt by seeing measurements or their sponsors feelings are hurt.

 

I think that the The Hi-Fi Performance Truth Crusade is pointless for audiophiles.

Most will buy a multitude of gear throughout their lifetime and some actively navigate ramdomly in search for a sonic presentation which will suit their preference (at least at a given point in time).

 

As for the general consumer, he probably doesn't care less about the performance of his system. He'll probably just buy on looks and budget. He won't watch Guttenberg's videos, read What Hi-Fi? or navigate ASR...

 

 

Which begs a most relevant question:

 

Why does Amir waste so much precious time measuring mostly plasticky toy speakers instead of speakers which audiophiles (his readers) would actually buy?

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4 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

I don't understand. This is a toy speaker? Revel F208 

 

And this is a toy speaker? KEF R3

 

I have this, is it a toy speaker with a pair of subwoofers 😃? Genelec 8341A

 

Those have been measured by ASR and more.

 

That's 3 of 121 to date... But you've certainly earned your ASR t-shirt and baseball cap.