ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[PeterSt]

14 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

the fact being that he recommends things like DACs without ever listening to them.

 

It is worse, because first he says he also listens, next shows the good SINAD, then tells (for the xxxth time) that our threshold of hearing is 115dB, to finally conclude without explicit words that there is no need to listen because "it can't make a difference".

[PeterSt]

15 hours ago, firedog said:

And I'll tell you what it means: I like dogs and don't like having my picture on the WWW.

 

Oh wait ! I thought that picture was you !!

[PeterSt]

33 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

It is worse, because first he says he also listens, next shows the good SINAD, then tells (for the xxxth time) that our threshold of hearing is 115dB, to finally conclude without explicit words that there is no need to listen because "it can't make a difference".

 

This is not true

 

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but of course this is true. In that latest video a first is at 5:50, a next literal one at 12:00 and from there on it gets worse and worse and worse. He seems to have a mental problem (I am actually not able to listen to him for these 20 minutes).

 

35 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

He says at the end of this video and many times, if you can hear a difference that doesn't show up on measurements, then show a log that you did a blind test and got 9/10 correct.

 

Yea, so what ? It only proves that he just does not try or is deaf.

I will do 10 out of 10 with the kitchen hoover at maximum. 100 out of 100 if you want. But hey if you shout these last 8 minutes over and over that you don't see a difference, even stipulates that *I* don't see a difference WHILE the differences are totally obviously shown BUT you keep on screaming as loud that you won't be able to hear these differences which are clearly shown, then ...

you* have a mental problem.

 

*) All the "you" is he; In the text above I'm not addressing anyone on this forum.

 

10 out of 10. But different than @manisandher and his blue pill / red pill thread, I will only invite you when you bring a bag of $ to lose on the bet. You can bring your own DAC if you deem that important. I'll pick the music.

You will soon see that no blind test is necessary because of the huge differences you will perceive. And I mean huge.

 

To be clear, my analyzer won't show any differences up to -160dB. So different from what AmirM tells there, I won't see any difference in an otherwise totally clean signal (no comparison to what he shows there).

This makes it even more "impossible" eh ?

 

Mail me if you need the address. 🤑

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

And I have no idea what the purpose of your proposed blind test is?

 

Um, the same test you proposed yourself (through AmirM) ?

 

1 hour ago, asdf1000 said:

He says at the end of this video and many times, if you can hear a difference that doesn't show up on measurements, then show a log that you did a blind test and got 9/10 correct.

 

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

To be very specific - I can bring the Kimber Kable USB Cable and you are betting a lot of money to score 10/10 in a blind test with my DAC and your music ?😃

 

Well, I don't see a comparison in there. So we'd need to compare with an other USB cable, right ?

Easier would be to use my own DAC (tbh: using your DAC would be totally clumsy because of various obvious reasons).

 

Again more easy would be to use my own USB cable only, and throw some dipswitches to change the sound drastically.

 

 

At making the photo my wife asked what I was doing. "Oh, making some bets about the USB cables we provide". Her response "Ah, OK".**

 

But throwing dipswitches could be too secret for people, so better would be to use an other of our USB cables.

Btw, it is not about the able, it is about the difference random cables may make. And since we make the cables for a purpose and with an explicit design, I already know the outcome.

 

My real advice is to not to take such bets, because you will lose by guarantee. Plus we bet for EUR 1000 at least.

 

**) "If I can only keep my car", she added. LOL

[PeterSt]

Just now, asdf1000 said:

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Well, I don't see a comparison in there. So we'd need to compare with an other USB cable, right ?

There is. You can't comment about the video if you haven't watched the video 😃

 

True. But I did watch the video (painfully).

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

If that's know what you are saying, then I don't understand why you are engaging here?

 

I could be having more problems with your writing than you have with mine. Last time, and the simplest form OK ?:

 

I have two of our own USB cables (if you don't understand this ... we make them);

I have a DAC (this should be without issues, but FYI we make those too);

We play by means of my dedicated audio PC (it gets boring, but we make that too);

We play through my system (just in case you think I could do it with another's system - but whatever that system, it is made by use again (sorry);

You can swap the cables, and I will tell 10 out of 10 which one is which;

We play my selected music through XXHighEnd (software, which is also made by us/me). I am allowed to play as much as I want before making the choice. Luckily we can expect 2-3 seconds after each swap.

We don't A/B the same tracks all over because I hate that, but instead nicely play different music each time. For your convenience we could repeat though, but this will be merely for elaboration on what to listen for.

We bet for a 1000 euros at least.

 

In addition (but ignore if you can't bear it):

 

You will see that the procedure is cancelled before the fun starts, because you will be able to hear it yourself with the greatest ease. The bet is never off when the fun is cancelled.

 

You should not go into this because you WILL lose. But go ahead if you like it after all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, asdf1000 said:

It's really simple. 

 

Apparently it is hard for you to get the gist of someone in a video claiming that certain stuff can only be inaudible, unless you can prove it by means of a 9/10 blind test result ?

(which still claims that the things on the topic are inaudible, already because AmirM screams about that each 30 seconds - I suppose you miss those all)

 

2 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

This is not true

 

You have a nice way of twisting yourself out of things. So you already lost. 😜

Anyway have a great day !

 

[PeterSt]

18 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Let's see if we can do an internet blind test on Lush^2 against a printer USB cable, both of which I have in my possession along with a few DACs

 

OK, don't look then !!

 

         

 

Only answer

 

left

or

right

 

which is the generic cable ?

[PeterSt]

34 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Let's see if we can do an internet blind test on Lush^2 against a printer USB cable

 

Well, if *that* is going to work out, I'll be damned.

The configuration most people will be used to (including myself) is

A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R

which should be the config yours was shipped with too.

 

But Paul, I'd say your effort on this will be useless. It would be true, however, that I am pretty sure that if I'd capture the sound from my speakers, it will even be audible sent via WhatsApp on a phone. Ever back there also floated a video around from "IkBenStil" (Dutch people will know it) where you could the most easily hear the difference between (I think it was) JRiver and XXHighEnd. The difference was so large, that I myself thought it was fake(d). Back in those days this was not about reconstruction filtering, as XXHE only upsampled back then.

 

Anyway, chance is near zero that this will work out. If we - or I can hear that via the means you plan (??) then you should hear it too. And you already told you can't. Still, in your system I will be able to hear it too, so there's a very tiny chance ...

The least what should happen is picking the right music.

 

 

[PeterSt]

12 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Just guessing... left?

OK, now do that 10 times, and you can already do it. And better than Mani.

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, danadam said:

I will assume that you wanted to say "mental block". We wouldn't want to make immature comments? R I G H T ? ? ?

 

Hahaha, I guess - no, I am sure my English needs some polishing. I'll start with the roughest paper first.

Mental block doesn't sound intuitive to me at all, but I looked it up and it fits. Thank you for the correction. 😊

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Hedging already 🤪? Why would it only be audible over your speakers and only in your system if this has to only do with the USB cable? Are you saying your system is the most resolving on the planet? ;)

 

Of course I claim the latter - you know me. 

 

This has nothing to do with systems, but with the way you will bring the listening test. I mean, most of you (this btw includes Mani somehow) think that you can preserve this sh*t at A/D'ing. You can't. I claimed the very same at the start of the blue pill / red pill thing and while of course nobody understood and nobody took precautions, what remained afterwards was a mental problem block for Mans, because none of it could be proven in the recorded digital data, afterwards. No wonder, because it won't be there.

 

Still, (my story about "IkBenStil") it might be possible if you record it via microphone. I am not sure whether this came across.

So what will be your (planned) means to do it ?

 

The music will be tracks I could provide. Btw full tracks and not snippets. I could distribute the by you recorded files if you're afraid of that not being allowed. I don't care about this myself.

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, danadam said:

Huh? Is capture of DACs output not enough?

 

Funny eh ?

[PeterSt]

9 minutes ago, danadam said:

Huh? Is capture of DACs output not enough?

 

This could be a bit of (or kind of) a reverse aspect of what Amir so explicitly tells about. If you can't measure it, you can't hear it. Well, if my analyzer can't measure it, my ADC won't capture it.

Don't think I am trying to be funny and please notice that none of the tests Mani created I participated in. It just doesn't work (and he too used that full system I am used to myself - exactly the same).

Btw, Mani as well as me used a Pasific Microsonics Model 2 for its ADC so it shouldn't exactly be the worst ADC.

 

My not-so-scientific explanation:

There is much much more going on at the path from the source to the loudspeaker and all could interact - that some elements indeed do interact is proven and possibly also known. Take for example the impedance response from DAC output to power amp (assumed you skip the preamp) and there you have a known one. Now all it may need to explain on how recording by microphone works and capturing the analogue output of the DAC does not, is the quite infinite multiplication of happenings. This starts with the gain (of say 20).

Thus just saying (again) - where Amir doesn't see a difference at all, I see them all over the place, and no matter they are 140 dB down, once coming from the speakers all is 20dB higher to begin with, next starts to interact (this is why all measurements should be severe IMD measurements) and again add up (as in: two distortions stacked, double their output).

Try a real time very slow sweep and observe all the strange things happening at various frequencies, including two into each other rolling peaks one from aliasing (sorry if I can't make this clear) while when the peaks meet, their output doubles. This happens with music - not known test signals (unless you'd know how to create them - a real time sweep is like that a little).

 

All DACs show jitter (less or more) and I have no clue where the ideas come from that a side lobe at -150dB is not audible (plus not all jitter shows as side lobes). Jitter doesn't work like that. It is time domain stuff. It expresses the most easily in the lowest frequencies. Must you first have those properly organized instead of full with distortion.

Keep in mind when USB cables are the subject - they can only change in-DAC jitter signature.

[PeterSt]

9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Feed the analog output from the DAC into a quality pro ADC (Apogee Element24, which I've tested and measured before and know it measures well) and record this to a digital file.

 

Paul, please, don't bother. No need to prove the accuracy (or not) of your ADC. No need to teach me either.

Plus no need to shift the goal posts I set. 🤗

I am doing this too long by now.

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

It's not about you, Peter. You're welcome to participate or not, totally your choice.

 

And it is your choice of organizing this. But again I refer to the pills thread - there too people thought it would work. But it did not at all. And because of that Mans kept on inventing stories about how Mani could have hoisted the test.

 

If you put up such a test then you'd be doing the very same as Amir. You may like his methods, but I blatantly disagree. Amir laughs his ass out over the back of Alex Crespi, and all contestants will laugh their asses out over the customers who'd also may score a 10/10 in their homes. They (Lush users) will of course join too (I won't) and they all will score 5/5. And Paul is laughing and laughing and laughing because finally he is right.

After changing the goal posts.

 

It doesn't work like that.

 

Must I send you a pair of microphones, or what's the problem with that ?

haha

[PeterSt]

Actually the problem is always the same with measurements. You very definitely do see differences, but in 100% of cases "you guys" claim it is inaudible. I actually don't know where this act springs from. Should be text book stuff ?

 

@pkane2001, remember how I clearly can measure almost qualitatively the difference between players or player (buffer etc.) settings. I created that, I really measured, and I showed it. No such thing exists that I know of, but you were working on it. I mean, the exact same as I did it.

All what will be the result - no matter the difference can be qualified *and* dedicated to a harming source - you will still be saying that is has to be inaudible, right ?

So what if you could let go of that. The stupid thing is that it will only help you, unless you're not an audiophile.

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

In what universe does adding speakers + room, amps, and microphones (not to mention multiple additional cables) to the recording chain produce a more accurate recording than the direct analog?

 

I tried to explain that a couple of posts back.

 

And I didn't mention "accurateness" in there.

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

So you want me to use a mic to record the speaker output

 

I don't want you to do anything, but if you want to set up a test about USB cables, yes, I would give that a chance.

But don't forget to make it stereo.

 

Earlier on I talked about WhatsApp, but I imagine that even using my stupid phone to record the music, would work out. The audible differences are too large to not let that work out. Of course I could do that myself in a wimp, but I create the cable, so that won't be accepted. Any customer could do it too, but that is a user, so that won't be accepted.

It is not so easy. And it shouldn't be your burden really.

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Accuracy is critical here, otherwise, what is it that I'm recording? Your entire system, including speakers, amps, microphones, and ADC? I don't have your system

 

I said it this (my) morning. This is not related to my system at all. All what my system may contribute is my 10/10 score. Your system might show some of it, but I will never claim anything from another one's system, already because it takes time to learn it. And via this means ? I'd sincerely hope that it will be audible. But again, I'd give it a chance. But it should be worth while the effort. As in: try one of the tracks (to provide) first and when me, myself and I don't hear a difference, then let's drop it. But if I do hear a difference (no matter which is which), then that is enough to let people do the test. Agreed ?

Edit: And then I will join too, of course.

[PeterSt]

8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Accuracy is critical here

 

I don't think it is, because all is relative. It is relative to your system, your phone or whatever you may use for recording and your set volume (which should not be too soft). And those tracks. All what changes is the USB cable.

But put the mic on a tripod and try to be at the same position always, yourself (reflections).

 

The most difficult part to get between our ears would be the strange phenomenon that a most lousy ADC and most lousy (phone stereo-) microphone would be able to catch, what an ADC will not with the by far more accurate data (indeed). Looks like a challenge. But we talked about it before I think, over in countries like Malaysia they work like that. They ask me to take a recording, and buy from there (or not). I did not believe that too when I first heard about it.

So I would give it a chance.

 

 

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

But I don't think it's in the interest of everyone else to not publish the results.

 

Of course the results should be published. Maybe I implied something wrongly.

 

All right. When the time is right, you better open a new thread for it.

This evening (which is a few hours away) I will start selecting a few tracks and get them to you so you will know what you are dealing with. I will try to not focus on one style only, although this is not easy, as not all music styles show what a system can do ultimately (be that yours or be that mine). So even if the style ain't right, I will try to make it interesting.

[PeterSt]

5 hours ago, plissken said:

I've been on the Taiko website and they have bigger, fundamental, misunderstandings about computers:

 

I am afraid that you don't know Dutch well. But to me that makes perfect sense.

I will be the same reason why it is difficult to understand my English. Half of the words need to spring in between the others from consistency or logic. Plus, I think that we (or at least I) take a lot for granted as your knowledge. Emile does that there too.

Change your mind set (as in that he surely will know what the difference between a backup and RAID is) and it will be readable as intended.

 

PS: For AmirM (or others), our own Audio PC's are also 28 or 32 core Xeons (on real server boards).

[PeterSt]

29 minutes ago, plissken said:

You don't need to spend gobs of money on this. You don't have to sacrifice anything either.

 

 

 

And this is my basement. It will sound like sh*t because it wasn't made to play audio. For that we build different machines.

 

I am shouting for over 2 years now that the PC is more important to the sound than the DAC. And it better be believed because without exception each customer agrees fully. You just never tried it, I suppose. Or you think you know better. Or you think you are an Amir. Hahaha.

But seriously. If you think you are an audiophile you must seriously invest in the playback hardware.

 

I don't do it exactly the same as Taiko.

 

 

So a Server board in there, that 28 or 32 core Xeon processor, running at 500Mhz (settable) and of course with a Linear PSU inside. Oh all passive. No watercooling either. wait, not even heatsinks (except for the CPU heatsink). CPU 60 degrees C max. Weight 13Kg.

No room heater at all.

 

So is this better than the Taiko ? ... -> Unimportant. Both ate infinitely better sounding than your laptop.