ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[Rexp]

14 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

If the Engineers of products we love are active on the forum and happy with Amir's measurements at what point does it seem silly that consumers of these products complain that measurements aren't everything?

 

In addition to the products I mentioned, Genelec, Neumann, KRK, RME, Focusrite (Gen3), Motu - these are some of the biggest names making the gear that make the music we listen to... getting recommendations by Amir.

Good engineering behind the products we love and behind the music we love.

 

What is the issue with Amir here?

 

It really makes no sense now.

 

 

 

 

 

The issue is Amir relies on his measuring equipment to tell him if a product should sound good or not, unfortunately no measuring equipment is currently good enough to do this. 

[Rexp]

21 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

A great take on ASR by Rob H in my opinion.

 

As I mentioned earlier, just ignore Amir's subjective comments and who cares what another pair of ears hears anyway :-)

 

And as I mentioned earlier, he has verified that Genelec, KEF R3, Neumann monitors, KRK monitors, Focal speakers, Benchmark interface, Focusrite interface, Motu interface, Chord Qutest DAC, RME interface, Benchmark amp, new Schiit Audio products etc, do what the manufacturers say they do . I didn't even mention JBL and Revel there in case someone screams conflict of interest even though measurements and measurements.

 

I agree the way Amir writes has/can put some people off but I find that easy to filter and just look at the data.

 

And Rob H does point out some of the flaws in measurements (which Amir acknowledges himself!)

 

And I agree with some of the points about some fanatics over there.

 

3rd party verification (done well) is always a good thing. Does it do what the manufacturer says it does.

 

If someone argues we should have less 3rd part verification in this world, well I'm lost.

 

 

If you rely on meaningless measurements, your are lost. 

[Rexp]

11 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Meaningless? KEF, Genelec, Harman, Neumann engineers don't think they are meaningless.

 

Your opinion is your opinion but they are lost and you are found? 😄

 

And I don't "rely" on measurements - I consider them. I like to know that what the manufacturer says something does, it does.

 

If you like to be lied to, that's fine for you.

 

I'm lost if someone wants less 3rd party verification in this world.

 

The world should have just trusted VW and a regulator shouldn't have measured right ;-)

 

I am not drawing any similarity between the importance of audio hobby and climate change - the point of the example is sometimes you can't trust what a manufacturer tells you unless you have someone check 😉There have been examples of this in HiFi as Amir has found.

 

I'd be delighted if there was a measurement or way to veryify whether stuff sounds good/high fidelity- but it doesn't exist. 

[Rexp]

19 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

I just want to know something does what the manufacturer says it does on the box. I have to keep repeating this because it seems to be going over peoples heads.

 

After that, I'm happy to use my own ears to " veryify whether stuff sounds good/high fidelity"

 

Sound like a fair and reasonable approach? 😉

I think the reason ASR is popular is that many believe most digital tweaks/high priced sources are snake oil. I do too but measuements can't tell us, we can only trust our ears. Best to ignore measurements. 

[Rexp]

4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Don’t know if that’s true in general. But those who look for one source of information and never look beyond deserve what they get.

You mean like assuming existing measurements are all that you need for audio evaluation. 

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

I could only find 4 manufacturers of low cost DACs.  Were there any high-end manufacturers?  What were your keywords for search?

 

Careful, if you hang around on that site too long you might get infected..

[Rexp]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

P.S. @Andyman can you find someone on Earth who agrees with your logic on this? I'm all ears, but I think it's faulty. I'll even listen to the most objective people on this one. What does @pkane2001 say? I'm all ears. 

If the consumer uses the exact PCM playback chain the Artist heard in the mastering studio they will hear what Artist heard. What do you think the consumer will hear if they then change to DSD upsampling playback? So yes I agree with @Andyman

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Except that in practice nobody will ever have the exact PCM playback chain the Artist had in mastering studio. Already for the reason that there are way too many studios that people could possess the same gear and playback chain. Even less so the same acoustics.

 

But say the consumer did have the same PCM chain and listened on the same headphones, the goal of recreating what was heard in the mastering studio would be achieved. 

[Rexp]

35 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

 

 

My goal is to exceed the quality and performance that was available in the mastering studio and hear also the details that were not even audible in the mastering studio. To really hear what is in the recording.

 

 

 

 

You don't think its possible to hear whats on the recording at a mastering studio? 

[Rexp]

8 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Maybe, maybe not. But if you have better system and better ears, you can hear more than they did.

 

Assuming you could, which playback chain would be more accurate, the PCM chain used by the mastering studio or a DSD upsampling chain? 

[Rexp]

44 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

@asdf1000 let me know that he's no longer allowed to post here, so don't expect an answer.

Shame, he inadvertently created a good thread. 

[Rexp]

55 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

What do you exactly mean by "PCM chain used by the mastering studio"?

 

If they used some DAC based on remotely modern D/A converter chip, that includes something similar to "DSD upsampling chain", but just in a way that cuts a lot of corners while doing so. Those cut corners for various reasons, for example because it is on the same chip as the sensitive analog parts, because of thermal reasons (cannot assume cooling), because clock speeds are below 100 MHz, and because of component target cost (about 10€).

 

You replied to me on this topic, I suggest you scroll back to see what was being discussed at the time, lol. 

[Rexp]

15 minutes ago, JoshM said:

I’m assuming you’re referring to a file mastered to PCM initially (since there are some SACD and other releases mastered to DSD), but what I think is interesting about this is the (porous) wall between the pro and hi-fi world. While there are some brands that straddle the line (like Mytek) and some that grew out of pro brands (Pacific Microsonics -> Berkeley), there are lots of commonly used pro ADCs that consumers rarely buy. There also are some mastering studios that use multiple DACs to listen to playback. So nailing down “how it sounded in the studio” (even putting aside the rest of the chain) becomes even harder in that case. 

What will be interesting is PS Audio are planning to design the whole recording and play back chain for their new record label so one will more easily be able to hear at home what was heard in the studio.

[Rexp]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Accept for the unavoidable fact that the room plays a huge role in the sound. 

Not if you use headphones. 

[Rexp]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Then you have a whole other set of issues. 

Like what? 

[Rexp]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

The headphones to ear interaction is no less complex than speakers to room and in some ways more.

And? 

[Rexp]

9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Try to hear what a mastering engineer heard, even with the same electronics and headphones he used.

We would be listening to exactly the same sound. We would hear it differently but that is irrevalent. 

[Rexp]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

We should also get hearing test results from all engineers, compare them to our own results, and make appropriate compensation DSP to hear exactly what s/he heard. 
 

Preposterous. 

Indeed

[Rexp]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

How do you listen without hearing?

 

Late there is it? 

[Rexp]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

My wife says I do it all the time...

My ex boss did it all the time. 

[Rexp]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Just curious why it's important to reproduce a sound that you can listen to but can't hear.

I'm curious to know what you're smoking? 

[Rexp]

3 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

I wake up every morning and thank my maker that he didn't curse me with your ability to hear distortion.

 

This inability to hear what you're hearing allows me to spend each day just listening to music rather than trying to make angels do handstands on the head of a pin.

I thought you woke up every morning thinking Don't reply to Frank, Don't reply to Frank...