Under $4K Roon server with clock input and best quality ethernet out?

[jbm_2021]

Folks,

Currently I have an i7 based NUC which performs well with the rest of the setup (Sotm SMS-200 Ultra NEO, Tx USB Ultra and Sotm Switch all special editions). A mutec ref10 se120 clock on the way. Cables are Sablon for ethernet and USB. Habst for 2 of the clocks. DAC is a Chord TT2 with Mscaler (HFC fidelity BCN on the way). Power conditioners and cords from Jena labs.

Now I want to get the best quality out of the roon core replacing NUC. Top options on my list were

1. SMS-1000

2. Roon Nucleus plus

 

however, only option 1 has the external clock option.

 

First question, if I am not using the usb port out of the sms-1000 will the external clock still make a difference?

Secondly, what are the other options I should consider in less than $4K range. I am ok doing DIY if the need arises. 

Thanks,

Jai

 

[ecwl]

With $4k to blow, I'm a bit confused by the objective of the upgrade. I was able to see your first ever post about your preferences for further upgrades. 

 

My take on the digital end is that the primary sonic issue that might have room for improvements would be related to high impedance (and maybe low impedance) leakage current related to the switch mode supplies of Chord TT2 & M-Scaler. And you have your mind set on using USB to power the M-Scaler. So in my mind, upgrading the Roon Core server is likely to get you the lowest yield benefits. My guess is that the following are the highest yield upgrades:

1) Using unshielded Ethernet cables

2) Maybe replacing SoTM switch with the EtherRegen

3) Using battery powered supplies for M-Scaler & TT2 or a reasonably high-end linear power supply (without blowing up the units)

And they all cost significantly less than $4k (maybe with linear power supply, the sky is the limit)

 

But I also think that you mentioned you tried EQ and didn't like DiracLive but that's a fairly automated process so definitely there is a lot of hit and miss that I've seen. Ultimately, having a USB microphone (miniDSP UMIK-1) and learning how to use Room EQ Wizard is exceedingly cheap but also time-wise expensive. But addressing frequency response and room acoustic issues scientifically are often the most cost effective way to upgrade the sound (not randomly adding more and more room treatments which I've seen so often, or using room calculators without actual measurements). I recently just upgraded my convolution filter with an additional virtual bass array using Acourate and the sound is quite dramatic, more than any network tweaks can possibly get. The learning curve for this type of manual tweaking is high. And if you really hate it, you can just hire people to create convolution filter for you, e.g. https://accuratesound.ca.

 

You have a great system. Maybe you already have a great room which is why you're trying for these really specific tweaks. I don't have a great room and I don't want to turn my living room into a hi-fi shop. I don't have my latest correction filter but the one from a few weeks ago was attached. So unless you have a phenomenal frequency response from your speakers you're proud to post, I think there is probably lots more audio bang for the buck waiting for you in digital room correction than what a new server can offer.

 

 

 

[davide256]

You really ought to try Euphony Stylus on your NUC before you continue down the Roon path. I gave up on Roon this year and my DAC options aren’t even as revealing as yours... Roon didn’t  have the same clarity 

[jbm_2021]

1 hour ago, ecwl said:

With $4k to blow, I'm a bit confused by the objective of the upgrade. I was able to see your first ever post about your preferences for further upgrades. 

 

My take on the digital end is that the primary sonic issue that might have room for improvements would be related to high impedance (and maybe low impedance) leakage current related to the switch mode supplies of Chord TT2 & M-Scaler. And you have your mind set on using USB to power the M-Scaler. So in my mind, upgrading the Roon Core server is likely to get you the lowest yield benefits. My guess is that the following are the highest yield upgrades:

1) Using unshielded Ethernet cables

2) Maybe replacing SoTM switch with the EtherRegen

3) Using battery powered supplies for M-Scaler & TT2 or a reasonably high-end linear power supply (without blowing up the units)

And they all cost significantly less than $4k (maybe with linear power supply, the sky is the limit)

 

But I also think that you mentioned you tried EQ and didn't like DiracLive but that's a fairly automated process so definitely there is a lot of hit and miss that I've seen. Ultimately, having a USB microphone (miniDSP UMIK-1) and learning how to use Room EQ Wizard is exceedingly cheap but also time-wise expensive. But addressing frequency response and room acoustic issues scientifically are often the most cost effective way to upgrade the sound (not randomly adding more and more room treatments which I've seen so often, or using room calculators without actual measurements). I recently just upgraded my convolution filter with an additional virtual bass array using Acourate and the sound is quite dramatic, more than any network tweaks can possibly get. The learning curve for this type of manual tweaking is high. And if you really hate it, you can just hire people to create convolution filter for you, e.g. https://accuratesound.ca.

 

You have a great system. Maybe you already have a great room which is why you're trying for these really specific tweaks. I don't have a great room and I don't want to turn my living room into a hi-fi shop. I don't have my latest correction filter but the one from a few weeks ago was attached. So unless you have a phenomenal frequency response from your speakers you're proud to post, I think there is probably lots more audio bang for the buck waiting for you in digital room correction than what a new server can offer.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your feedback.

To address your third point, I forgot to mention I did upgrade to all LPS (Farad Super 3s with their upgrades). Not sure I understood your point about using USB to power the Mscaler. The Mscaler takes the USB coming from Sotm tx-usb ultra. The Mscaler is also powered by a 15v Farad LPS. 

Regarding 1, Which unshielded ethernet cables are you referring to? I upgraded to the Sablon cables which are highly regarded here. Other than them being not very easily flexible, I have no issues with them so far. 

Regarding 2, the exact model I have is the Sotm sNH-10G with sCLK-EX and 50 ohm master clock input and the evox capacitor and silver wire internal upgrades. The Mutec ref10 se120 will be used for the sNH-10G as well. Curious how does the Ethergen compare to it? I will do my research, but wanted to hear your thoughts.

Regarding 3, I played with Dirac on the Arcam and also on Minidsp SHD. I also tried REW with convolution filters with the Umik. To my ears no EQ sounds the very best in my setup. The inroom response is pretty good and not perfect like you would get with Dirac or the convolution filters. But since I have two separate amps (Line Magnetic Single Ended triode for the mid and high and a NAD C298 solid state amp for the bass module) I am able to get a nice target curve with some boost sub 200Hz.

Looking at the chart you posted above, you may want to try a slight 3dB higher sub 200 and see how you like it.

Based on my response above, please post your thoughts. I appreciate all inputs. 

 

 

[jbm_2021]

37 minutes ago, davide256 said:

You really ought to try Euphony Stylus on your NUC before you continue down the Roon path. I gave up on Roon this year and my DAC options aren’t even as revealing as yours... Roon didn’t  have the same clarity 

Thanks Dave. I already invested in the Roon lifetime license a year ago. If there is something better, I am interested to try. I will give the Euphony stylus a try. I guess this is going to take some learning as I want to save the image of the roon core and do a complete build of the Euphony. Would you mind elaborating your setup? I never felt the Roon clarity was lacking, but hey until I try, how would I know 😀

[ecwl]

1. The problem with the Sablon shielded cable is not the shielding. The problem is that you’ve just grounded all your components together because of the termination of the shielded Ethernet cable, and could potentially have rendered that expensive SoTM switch of yours useless. Since CAT6 unshielded cables are super cheap on Amazon, you really should try replacing all the Sablon shielded cable with CAT6 unshielded cables and see if you like the sound better.

2. I personally have been debating whether to get a switch like EtherRegen or SoTM network switch. Or the Farad LPS. In the end, I decided against it and just use the stock supply for M-Scaler but started feeding it with Toslink to eliminate ground noise, leakage currents, etc. So unfortunately, I don’t have further experience on this but if you’re set on this, lots of other members on this site have discussed EtherRegen vs SoTM I believe

3. Yeah, I would never use REW to create a convolution filter. In fact, while I would be willing to use REW to tune out the major bass peaks using parametric EQ, I would be very careful about overdoing it. And I would not use parametric EQ to adjust the midrange or high frequencies. This is where there is quite a bit of experimentation and learning and it’s the reason why it’s very time consuming to construct proper DSP for a system or create an optimal convolution filter in Acourate.

And yes, when I used to only do parametric EQ, I did have a slight 4dB bass rise sub 200Hz. But with the convolution filter, I find myself preferring music without that extra bass. I definitely tested a lot of target frequency responses until I found one that I like.

[jbm_2021]

3 minutes ago, ecwl said:

1. The problem with the Sablon shielded cable is not the shielding. The problem is that you’ve just grounded all your components together because of the termination of the shielded Ethernet cable, and could potentially have rendered that expensive SoTM switch of yours useless. Since CAT6 unshielded cables are super cheap on Amazon, you really should try replacing all the Sablon shielded cable with CAT6 unshielded cables and see if you like the sound better.

2. I personally have been debating whether to get a switch like EtherRegen or SoTM network switch. Or the Farad LPS. In the end, I decided against it and just use the stock supply for M-Scaler but started feeding it with Toslink to eliminate ground noise, leakage currents, etc. So unfortunately, I don’t have further experience on this but if you’re set on this, lots of other members on this site have discussed EtherRegen vs SoTM I believe

3. Yeah, I would never use REW to create a convolution filter. In fact, while I would be willing to use REW to tune out the major bass peaks using parametric EQ, I would be very careful about overdoing it. And I would not use parametric EQ to adjust the midrange or high frequencies. This is where there is quite a bit of experimentation and learning and it’s the reason why it’s very time consuming to construct proper DSP for a system or create an optimal convolution filter in Acourate.

And yes, when I used to only do parametric EQ, I did have a slight 4dB bass rise sub 200Hz. But with the convolution filter, I find myself preferring music without that extra bass. I definitely tested a lot of target frequency responses until I found one that I like.

I honestly am not able to follow this "The problem with the Sablon shielded cable is not the shielding. The problem is that you’ve just grounded all your components together because of the termination of the shielded Ethernet cable, and could potentially have rendered that expensive SoTM switch of yours useless. "

 

I am trying to understand why would an unshielded cable be better than a shielded one when used with the Sotm switch. The shielding in the cable per my understanding will prevent further noises from what is around the cables. The filtering in the switch is going to filter noise that is already present in the signals. What am I missing?

BTW, don't get me wrong about EQ. I use it for home theater with my Arcam Av40 in a Dolby Atmos setup. It does a very good. Just not suitable for HiFi music to my taste.

I used to use Audyssey MulteqXT pro version earlier and before that Rane PEQs with painful ETF measurements to only EQ the subs.

 

[jbm_2021]

1 hour ago, ecwl said:

With $4k to blow, I'm a bit confused by the objective of the upgrade. I was able to see your first ever post about your preferences for further upgrades. 

 

My take on the digital end is that the primary sonic issue that might have room for improvements would be related to high impedance (and maybe low impedance) leakage current related to the switch mode supplies of Chord TT2 & M-Scaler. And you have your mind set on using USB to power the M-Scaler. So in my mind, upgrading the Roon Core server is likely to get you the lowest yield benefits. My guess is that the following are the highest yield upgrades:

1) Using unshielded Ethernet cables

2) Maybe replacing SoTM switch with the EtherRegen

3) Using battery powered supplies for M-Scaler & TT2 or a reasonably high-end linear power supply (without blowing up the units)

And they all cost significantly less than $4k (maybe with linear power supply, the sky is the limit)

 

But I also think that you mentioned you tried EQ and didn't like DiracLive but that's a fairly automated process so definitely there is a lot of hit and miss that I've seen. Ultimately, having a USB microphone (miniDSP UMIK-1) and learning how to use Room EQ Wizard is exceedingly cheap but also time-wise expensive. But addressing frequency response and room acoustic issues scientifically are often the most cost effective way to upgrade the sound (not randomly adding more and more room treatments which I've seen so often, or using room calculators without actual measurements). I recently just upgraded my convolution filter with an additional virtual bass array using Acourate and the sound is quite dramatic, more than any network tweaks can possibly get. The learning curve for this type of manual tweaking is high. And if you really hate it, you can just hire people to create convolution filter for you, e.g. https://accuratesound.ca.

 

You have a great system. Maybe you already have a great room which is why you're trying for these really specific tweaks. I don't have a great room and I don't want to turn my living room into a hi-fi shop. I don't have my latest correction filter but the one from a few weeks ago was attached. So unless you have a phenomenal frequency response from your speakers you're proud to post, I think there is probably lots more audio bang for the buck waiting for you in digital room correction than what a new server can offer.

 

 

 

I missed answer your question "With $4k to blow, I'm a bit confused by the objective of the upgrade. I was able to see your first ever post about your preferences for further upgrades. "

 

The main objective is to get the next level of improvement if any, without any degradation or major compromises. $4K is a lot of money. However the way I look at it, is upgrade one piece at a time and keep that for as long as you can. The best bang for the buck stage is over. Now it is about finer refinements. There is nothing wrong with the system at all at this time. However, everytime I think I am done, I do one small change (for example a tube roll to telefunken 12ax7 smooth plate), I hear another very satisfying change. Hope that clarifies. 

[ecwl]

8 minutes ago, jbm_2021 said:

I honestly am not able to follow this "The problem with the Sablon shielded cable is not the shielding. The problem is that you’ve just grounded all your components together because of the termination of the shielded Ethernet cable, and could potentially have rendered that expensive SoTM switch of yours useless. "

 

[davide256]

4 hours ago, jbm_2021 said:

Thanks Dave. I already invested in the Roon lifetime license a year ago. If there is something better, I am interested to try. I will give the Euphony stylus a try. I guess this is going to take some learning as I want to save the image of the roon core and do a complete build of the Euphony. Would you mind elaborating your setup? I never felt the Roon clarity was lacking, but hey until I try, how would I know 😀

Trialing Euphony Stylus is pretty easy, all you need is an 8gb USB memory stick to flash the boot image to and theres no linux knowledge required.

You can also switch to Rooncore under Euphony, useful if you want to explore information about a recording. Best sound is using  NAS sourced music, Qobuz and Tidal are also integrated.

A useful feature of Euphony is its buffer playlist to RAM, should have at least 8gb RAM, preferably 16gb for DSD albums. If you decide you like Stylus, I would suggest buying  Optane memory for the OS drive so that you can run a diskless system. Power supply is important, the Superfarad 3 or better should be fine.

In my setup I have a Uptone Audio JS-2 PS so can run all NUC BIOS acceleration options, with 16GB RAM, 16 GB Optane, Wifi disabled, connected to an Etherregen with Synology NAS library. While I like Roons GUI, playback always sounds wispy/fuzzy in comparison to the tone color purity of Stylus, I have to use HQPlayer endpoint service/w upsampling to make Roon palatable

 

[jbm_2021]

15 hours ago, davide256 said:

Trialing Euphony Stylus is pretty easy, all you need is an 8gb USB memory stick to flash the boot image to and theres no linux knowledge required.

You can also switch to Rooncore under Euphony, useful if you want to explore information about a recording. Best sound is using  NAS sourced music, Qobuz and Tidal are also integrated.

A useful feature of Euphony is its buffer playlist to RAM, should have at least 8gb RAM, preferably 16gb for DSD albums. If you decide you like Stylus, I would suggest buying  Optane memory for the OS drive so that you can run a diskless system. Power supply is important, the Superfarad 3 or better should be fine.

In my setup I have a Uptone Audio JS-2 PS so can run all NUC BIOS acceleration options, with 16GB RAM, 16 GB Optane, Wifi disabled, connected to an Etherregen with Synology NAS library. While I like Roons GUI, playback always sounds wispy/fuzzy in comparison to the tone color purity of Stylus, I have to use HQPlayer endpoint service/w upsampling to make Roon palatable

 

Ah, So I leave the roon installation intact in the SSD and then boot the NUC from the USB stick? I haven't played around with the boot priority. 

[jbm_2021]

20 hours ago, ecwl said:

 

I read through that thread. Thanks for trying to help. I still don't follow this statement ""The problem with the Sablon shielded cable is not the shielding. The problem is that you’ve just grounded all your components together because of the termination of the shielded Ethernet cable, and could potentially have rendered that expensive SoTM switch of yours useless. "

Would you mind explaining a different way. I know that there is definitely subjective factor to the benefit of LAN cables and while I don't try to measure everything and understand everything (sometimes it is impossible to find technical reasons behind why something sounds a certain way) , but what you are saying points a fundamental flaw in my setup. I take the flaw as violating "Don't use shielded cables that have metal terminations as  you will render the Sotm expensive switch useless". Really, I want to understand the technical argument behind this?

Thanks!!

Open question to everyone, not just ecwl. So please chime in and help me see my blind spot if there is one. 

[jbm_2021]

1 hour ago, jbm_2021 said:

Ah, So I leave the roon installation intact in the SSD and then boot the NUC from the USB stick? I haven't played around with the boot priority. 

Found this 

 

Will give it a try. What an amazing person who took time to show kindness to everyone else!! 

[jbm_2021]

I am pleasantly surprised with all the PMs I have received and all the support all of you have offered me so far. Thank you friends as we all have this common passion 😀

I was asked a few times about my setup, so I updated my profile to include the details. Here is the overview. 

 

HiFi Music System: SOtM sNH-10G sCLK-EX 50Ohm special edition, i7NUC Roon, Chord Hugo TT2 DAC, Chord Mscaler, SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo Special Edition 50Ohm, tX-USBultra special edition 50Ohm, Line Magnetic LM519ia Single Ended Triode amplifier (Psvane 845 tubes, Telefunken 12ax7 smooth plate vintage, Amperex Holland premium 1962 NOS rectifier), NAD C298 SS amplifier, Von Schweikert VR-5 anniversary edition speakers, Jena Labs power conditioner, power cords, analog interconnects, Multiple Farad Power super 3s for DAC/Mscaler/SOtM, SOtM sps-500 for router and modem, Sablon 2020 ethernet and USB cables, Analysis Plus speaker wires/interconnects

 

HT Setup: Dolby Atmos 9.1.4 Arcam AV40 with DiracLive. Only thing worth mentioning here are the big bad subwoofers I designed a decade ago collaborating with a friend from Finland. Tried out the best of the best out there including Danley, SVS, JL Audio and happily settled with these subs. Strangely, subs never used for HiFi. 

[Foggie]

Would be interested in your thoughts if you try euphony.  I think a good solution in your setup is to try euphony/stylusEP so you can still use roon and your endpoints.   Endpoints vs direct to DAC (no endpoints) are highly contestable debates around here.  Which one works best, only you can decide.  The euphony model/setup is a bit confusing (IMHO) since you can use it standalone (stylus) or with roon+HQP (stylusEP), at least I think that's how it works if i recall correctly.

 

Like you, it would be very difficult to give up roon for file mgmt, playback, integration etc.. especially after building a significant library.  Also, you would think by some accounts that roon is almost "unlistenable" which really is a stretch (IMHO).  However, most here aren't after good enough, so its understandable to look and experiment for the "next level" experience and euphony by all accounts, appears to hold true to that.  I use HQP with roon, so I get it and does a wonderful job in my config.

 

From my very brief exposure with euphony, setting it up, like most things in this hobby, isn't really plug n play.  I think for trialing, it may be pretty straight forward, but there appears to be a fair amount of setup to get it right.  At least when I tried it in my config, euphony was pretty new and it took a fair amount of putzing around and I just didn't have the time so I can't speak to the whole euphony experience.  I am very curious though and plan on giving it a go soon!

[jbm_2021]

5 hours ago, Foggie said:

Would be interested in your thoughts if you try euphony.  I think a good solution in your setup is to try euphony/stylusEP so you can still use roon and your endpoints.   Endpoints vs direct to DAC (no endpoints) are highly contestable debates around here.  Which one works best, only you can decide.  The euphony model/setup is a bit confusing (IMHO) since you can use it standalone (stylus) or with roon+HQP (stylusEP), at least I think that's how it works if i recall correctly.

 

Like you, it would be very difficult to give up roon for file mgmt, playback, integration etc.. especially after building a significant library.  Also, you would think by some accounts that roon is almost "unlistenable" which really is a stretch (IMHO).  However, most here aren't after good enough, so its understandable to look and experiment for the "next level" experience and euphony by all accounts, appears to hold true to that.  I use HQP with roon, so I get it and does a wonderful job in my config.

 

From my very brief exposure with euphony, setting it up, like most things in this hobby, isn't really plug n play.  I think for trialing, it may be pretty straight forward, but there appears to be a fair amount of setup to get it right.  At least when I tried it in my config, euphony was pretty new and it took a fair amount of putzing around and I just didn't have the time so I can't speak to the whole euphony experience.  I am very curious though and plan on giving it a go soon!

I definitely want to give Euphony a try. The USB Audio on my NEO is not working. Strangely it coincided with the Roon 1.8 update. I have no clue why that would render the NEOs USB audio non functional. I spent several hours debugging and based on inputs from May I think something is wrong with USB audio. The other two USBs on the NEO are working. I am curious if anyone else ran into this issue. I am sending it back to SoTM to get it fixed, shorten the clock cable and convert it to 75 ohms. The Mutec ref10 SE120 arrived in the country. I should get it sometime next week. Since the USB Audio is not working, my system is not up to par and hence hesitant to invest time on euphony right now. The dual HFC CT-2 shroeder cables arrive soon. This is for TT2 to Mscaler. Will keep you all posted. 

[skatbelt]

On 2/18/2021 at 11:06 PM, jbm_2021 said:

I read through that thread. Thanks for trying to help. I still don't follow this statement ""The problem with the Sablon shielded cable is not the shielding. The problem is that you’ve just grounded all your components together because of the termination of the shielded Ethernet cable, and could potentially have rendered that expensive SoTM switch of yours useless. "

Would you mind explaining a different way. I know that there is definitely subjective factor to the benefit of LAN cables and while I don't try to measure everything and understand everything (sometimes it is impossible to find technical reasons behind why something sounds a certain way) , but what you are saying points a fundamental flaw in my setup. I take the flaw as violating "Don't use shielded cables that have metal terminations as  you will render the Sotm expensive switch useless". Really, I want to understand the technical argument behind this?

Thanks!!

Open question to everyone, not just ecwl. So please chime in and help me see my blind spot if there is one. 

 

When you connect two components via a shielded ethernet cable (of which the shield is connected to the metal sleeves of both connectors), you create an electrical path for leakage currents between those components. This will adversely affect the sound quality. You can simply check your Sablon on this aspect with the continuity function of a multi-meter.

[jbm_2021]

1 hour ago, skatbelt said:

 

When you connect two components via a shielded ethernet cable (of which the shield is connected to the metal sleeves of both connectors), you create an electrical path for leakage currents between those components. This will adversely affect the sound quality. You can simply check your Sablon on this aspect with the continuity function of a multi-meter.

Thank you. I just checked and there is no continuity. Attaching pics. Just want to make sure I did the right test. I basically ensured contact to the metal ends. 

Is this right? Since there is no conductivity, is there still a concern?

 

[skatbelt]

8 hours ago, jbm_2021 said:

Thank you. I just checked and there is no continuity. Attaching pics. Just want to make sure I did the right test. I basically ensured contact to the metal ends. 

Is this right? Since there is no conductivity, is there still a concern?

 

 

Nope, you are all good!

[CJH]

+1 for doing speaker/room EQ first before spending the $4k on equipment. It will allow you to hear improvements and find problems much more easily, quickly and Acourate-ly.

CJH

[jbm_2021]

10 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

Nope, you are all good!

Thanks for confirming!

[jbm_2021]

4 hours ago, CJH said:

+1 for doing speaker/room EQ first before spending the $4k on equipment. It will allow you to hear improvements and find problems much more easily, quickly and Acourate-ly.

CJH

In room response is fairly good after I had matched the gains on the tube amp and SS amp. Yes, there is a bit of a dip at 200Hz, but I really am trying to avoid another filter in the signal path. As clean and as short as I can keep it, the better. Even putting a pre-amp I am avoiding as the Chord TT2 as a pre-amp does very well and sound clean.