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6 hours ago, TomJ said:

In my opinion, there is currently so much nonsense in the forums in the field of digital singnal transmission.

 Please provide OBJECTIVE proof of your claims as required in this area of the forum, not just from yellowing old Textbooks either.

 

BTW, why do you NEED to use a USB isolator if the data is correctly received, if things such as the PSU area and EARTHING in particular in the PC/Server do not matter ? 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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19 minutes ago, Superdad said:

It is always so tempting! x-D

4F4D8870-5A32-45C3-934E-B2841B644507.png.3f5d5310954802b4114dd28ddf165516.png

 

Its so annoying - there are so many myths about digital audio, that you can not distinguish whether it is true or only justification for the price paid.

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2 hours ago, sandyk said:

Then why don't you list some of the  "myths"  in order of importance that you believe are false. 

 

Here's one you might like: something to do with audible differences between two bit-identical files, one transferred by a USB stick, the other by a noisy internet download.

 

5 hours ago, TomJ said:

As I see that my questions also opens in this forum cans of worms with never ending discussions please ignore this.

 

Despite the name, this is not the forum to have such discussions. What USB isolator and DAC are you using?

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24 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Here's one you might like: something to do with audible differences between two bit-identical files, one transferred by a USB stick, the other by a noisy internet download.

 

   You aren't the OP .😊

As he made a remark about justification for the price paid, it is more likely a question for Vendors such as Uptone, JPLAY  etc.

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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@TomJ, Although you wouldn't say it, @pkane2001 is your friend in this thread. He may also be the only one. Haha. But at least he measures (I do too), finds (marginal) differences, and next ignores that because he can't explain it.

Did I say this about right, Paul ?

 

Tom, this is not about cans of worms. Your myths are very real, and the reality behind the myths are as real. 😜 But for example, I have a (Phasure) forum full of it, for something like 15 years now. I could be the one who "invented" all this sh*t by means of (bit perfect) playback software changing SQ all over the place, next a DAC which would be able to counter-act what the software changes for SQ (I was intrigued), this DAC in various incarnations with all the isolations possible (always as a first with that although one element was almost beaten by @Superdad (this was a matter of days, if not hours) - that latter telling that a few on this globe work for and on the same cause - that really doing a few things.

 

The subjects have been beaten to death so often, that it will be hard to receive normal honest and relevant responses. You can see this in this very thread, now you know that the key players all immediately jumped in (and upon you). I too wasn't very serious - was I ?

 

So I repeat : step into this with an open mind instead of having your conclusion ready in advance. That never works well.

 

Remember, Paul is your friend. Utilize that fact. You really can learn a thing or two.

 

 

PS: And if you *really* want to know, step in your car, drive 310km/u in Germany, hop over the border and listen at my place (In Holland). It should be fun. But a warning : it could cost you some money - well spent. This is up to you.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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On 2/13/2021 at 7:07 PM, TomJ said:

How could the software matter

 

Software is capable (by accident or by explicit means if one knows what he is doing), of implying different "schemes" of current usage. Normally this is not about the amount of current per se, but merely about the "flatness" opposed to spikes. These current schemes are able to droop into the DAC and from there influence jitter (which obviously is a clear reason for changing SQ).

N.b.: With different wording, this was my message in my first post in the Phasure forum (prior to that these phenomena already lived (by my ideas) in an other forum, hosted by Bert Doppenberg (BD-Design), might some recognize him).

 

When one (me) can influence the DAC's behavior, one can also counter-act that by all the means in a creative mind. I never succeeded over the course of time so far (the DAC exists for 11 years now).

Notice that as these are commercial products, I am thus not alone at all in my findings and judgments, settings and further tweaks. @sandyk mentioned JPlay. That too exists for influencing the sound, with the notice that it is a spin-off from XXHighEnd (my software). A few more exists, only one that I know of not springing from XXHighEnd.

 

These days, a bit out of ideas for the DAC (it never works out anyway, as implied, no matter what isolation), I started to work with cables. And in 100% of cases they work out for what they should do : counter-act the final anomalies not under control by other means. In other words, this is not about can-of-worms strange-act cables ... they are made for an explicit job and they work out for everyone.

 

The real can of worms is about the desire to measure what we can easily hear. And *this* now appears to be impossible (although I myself can do it). So what we can hear the most easily, can not be measured at all, or we don't know how to do that.

The real can of worms is about fine people like Paul, who at least is eager, where such people spread the word to you that because they can not measure "it", "it" can not be there. And there your myths are born. And mind you, Paul could be the only one who is actually on "my side" with an open mind, but who still has the huge problem that he can not really measure "it".

All thousands of others "know" that they measure well, and next decide that each cable or whatever is a myth in itself.

 

Peter

 

Edit:

Maybe I should emphasize to you, Tom, that it is the most easy for you to read my posts as self-advertising. But this is not the intention at all. Instead, all is a super long journey of improving sound for 1. me myself and 2. share that with others (very close to cost price). All what we make at Phasure went this route.

And if it really would be self-advertising, others will this time jump on to me, or else my posts will be (or should be) deleted. I only hope you read them first then.

 

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

The real can of worms is about fine people like Paul, who at least is eager, where such people spread the word to you that because they can not measure "it", "it" can not be there. And there your myths are born.

 

 +1.

 Neither will they accept the results of correctly performed DBT sessions , or the indicative results of threads such as from Manishander  that deserved to be followed up on with further testing ,simply because they are unable to confirm them with their Binary comparisons or unsuitable for the purpose, choice of S/W .

 

Incidentally,  the same mechanisms can also affect high resolution Digital Video both audibly and visually.

at the same time.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58169-red-or-blue-pill-part-ii/?tab=comments#comment-1020293

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

@TomJ, Although you wouldn't say it, @pkane2001 is your friend in this thread. He may also be the only one. Haha. But at least he measures (I do too), finds (marginal) differences, and next ignores that because he can't explain it.

Did I say this about right, Paul ?

 

Not quite, Peter. I can explain the differences, when they are present, easily. I ignore them because they are both, way below any known audibility of such effects, and because no matter how much I've tried, I can't hear the difference they cause (like your Lush cable). But, that's just me. That's why I wrote the software that I did. I did these for myself, mostly, but now others can do these tests for themselves.

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I hope we don’t need to discuss jitter over TCP / IP (which all streaming systems except Apple use today).
So the data is always the same, regardless of whether it comes to the endpoint via WiFi, LAN or fiber.
So only interference could change the sound.
I once connected a power bank to the streamer and the unclean electricity from the power bank was initially interpreted positively as more space.
With the isolator between my streamer and the RME ADI 2 DAC, this effect is over. Everything that is done in front of the isolator no longer has any (audible) influence on the sound.
I'm speculating now that the alleged sound improvements are actually a deterioration due to HF interference, which, if you try out intensively, have the right dose and please. This means that local files may sound better to some, as interference from hard drives, ssd readers, etc. are interspersed, but this does not correspond to the original sound.

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18 hours ago, TomJ said:

 

Its so annoying - there are so many myths about digital audio, that you can not distinguish whether it is true or only justification for the price paid.

It was so before digital came along... there were many in the early 80's that insisted their $300 Denon direct drive TT's couldn't possibly be bettered in sound

by a Thorens, AR or Linn  belt drive TT. Digital audio is somewhat similar... somethings screwing up digital audio inside computing devices before it becomes a USB output.

Good power supply quality, hardware integration and software that doesn't ride a bloated OS all help to reduce the problem.  We know now that "cogging" was

the issue with DD turntables of the 80's...hopefully research will eventually figure out computer audio's dependencies and how to best design

a purpose built computer audio source

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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6 hours ago, TomJ said:

With the isolator between my streamer and the RME ADI 2 DAC, this effect is over. Everything that is done in front of the isolator no longer has any (audible) influence on the sound.

 

Well it has, if you for example switch the ADI-2 to DSD Direct mode and always run it at DSD256. Instead of let's say sending 44.1k PCM there. Or alternatively running it at 705.6/768k 32-bit, which bypasses and improves over it's built-in digital filters which run only up to 352.8/384k.

 

And then you have wide variety possible digital filters and modulators you could run.

 

And this is all "in front of isolator"...

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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8 hours ago, TomJ said:

I once connected a power bank to the streamer and the unclean electricity from the power bank was initially interpreted positively as more space.
With the isolator between my streamer and the RME ADI 2 DAC, this effect is over. Everything that is done in front of the isolator no longer has any (audible) influence on the sound.
I'm speculating now that the alleged sound improvements are actually a deterioration due to HF interference, which, if you try out intensively, have the right dose and please. This means that local files may sound better to some, as interference from hard drives, ssd readers, etc. are interspersed, but this does not correspond to the original sound.

 

I've noted this thinking many times amongst people who don't want to appreciate what's going on - they see it as a win when the sound is dulled down to the point where changing things no longer has an impact; their listening is isolated from what's actually on the recording, and a uniformity in what they hear means there are no unexpected, unwanted surprises.

 

"More space" is precisely what's on the recording - and when it's correctly reproduced, that 'space' changes with every recording, track ... how could it not be so, since the environment of the recording space, and equipment, is so different, from one to the next?  A generally pleasant sameness may be satisfying, but is not the full story ...

 

Yes, it is irritating when "everything matters!" - but that's the story of trying to maximise accuracy of playback; sometimes, things get subjectively more sensitive to interference effects on the audio journey - but that's a positive, not a negative. If the next step is a really good one, all the positives in the SQ remain; but the interference anomalies are reduced.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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Just to get me right: I am happy with the isolator and am not looking for any "improvements" through bad electricity, like the example with the power bank. Of course, interference can still jump from one side of the isolator to the other, but the influence of HF and noise is minimized. This means that changes in the digital chain are no longer audible. So all so-called sound optimizations in the digital chain without isolator are just a gambling for the right dose of HF and noise, but then have nothing to do with the sound of the original recording. The "more space" or darker background e.g. through a special LAN cable is not available on the source, but is added incorrectly. To save myself such gambling, I am very happy with the isolator.

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1 hour ago, TomJ said:

 The "more space" or darker background e.g. through a special LAN cable is not available on the source, but is added incorrectly. To save myself such gambling, I am very happy with the isolator.

 

This is where people like myself disagree with you ... you believe that the 'better' presentation is just a form of distortion; whereas years of experience and investigation have convinced those like myself that in fact one is getting closer to the true nature of what has been recorded.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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To me whats been recorded is in the data. And to transform the data back to music its the job of the dac. If you are not happy with the sound of the dac, then I would buy an other dac rather than fiddling with cables, power supply of routers and so on.

So if the data is sent correctly to the dac (this is what RME dac can verify with a build in bit perfect test), I think the dac can do the best job by eliminating noise and HF. If you will add some flavor to the sound whats not on the recording with cables and so on, the isolator is not for you.

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I agree with the thrust of what you're saying. If the DAC is not good enough, then one solution is to buy, a "better DAC". But IME such units are still very, very expensive - a frugal buyer's solution is to add the engineering "on the outside" for more modest cost units; but it may take good understanding what one's after, to do that successfully.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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