Could Wireless Be Better or Worse Than Wired Ethernet?

[audiobomber]

On 2/8/2021 at 4:03 PM, audiobomber said:

I've ordered a TP-Link TL-WA901ND Wireless Access Point. I will power it with a Zero-Zone 12V 2A linear power supply, which from previous experience using a TP-Link RE580D, will provide a further sonic upgrade over the supplied wall wart.

I cancelled the TP-Link device because it is limited to 2.4GHz. Ordered a dual-band  Netgear WAC104 instead.

[Calvin & Hobbes]

On 2/7/2021 at 3:35 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I had a Devialet Expert series set of amps here many years ago and when it wasn't connected to a wireless network, the amps would place the wifi card and antennas internally into blast mode to search for networks. This was easily audible to even the most unlearned listener. 

@The Computer Audiophile I wonder if non-digital audio companies have since learned more about the value of isolating WiFi signals from the rest of the signal path.

[matthias]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:22 PM, audiobomber said:

I cancelled the TP-Link device because it is limited to 2.4GHz. Ordered a dual-band  Netgear WAC104 instead.

 

According to quite a few audiophiles the TP-Link RE650 seems to be one of the best devices:

 

https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Extender-Gigabit-Ethernet-RE650/dp/B01MR90E3A/ref=sr_1_1?crid=I298I60Z42OV&dchild=1&keywords=tp+link+re650&qid=1613155401&s=electronics&sprefix=tp+link+re650%2Celectronics%2C381&sr=1-1

 

Matt

[audiobomber]

18 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

According to quite a few audiophiles the TP-Link RE650 seems to be one of the best devices:

 

https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Extender-Gigabit-Ethernet-RE650/dp/B01MR90E3A/ref=sr_1_1?crid=I298I60Z42OV&dchild=1&keywords=tp+link+re650&qid=1613155401&s=electronics&sprefix=tp+link+re650%2Celectronics%2C381&sr=1-1

 

Matt

Thanks. I'm actually using the TP-Link RE580D, which has the advantage of a separate power supply. I already had this device for extending my network upstairs, replaced it with an RE450 for upstairs wi-fi and moved the 580D to my audio system, set it for no broadcast, powered with a Zero-Zone 12V LPS. 

[matthias]

I just came across a recent quote from a manufacturer of award winning custom audio cables:

 

"I did a comparison against being hardwired with a long run of my own ethernet cable a couple of years ago and the wifi sounded better. Go figure."

 

So I think that hardwired ethernet has only an advantage up to a certain length.

 

Matt

[plissken]

Has anyone noticed that Netflix 4K looks better wired vs wireless?

[The Computer Audiophile]

10 minutes ago, plissken said:

Has anyone noticed that Netflix 4K looks better wired vs wireless?

The adaptive lossy codec makes this test impossible. 

[plissken]

45 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The adaptive lossy codec makes this test impossible. 

 

Ok, how about 4K flat file? So we aren't dealing with any adaptive bit rate?

[The Computer Audiophile]

53 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Ok, how about 4K flat file? So we aren't dealing with any adaptive bit rate?

Not sure where the content would come from. In addition, it’s a little different because we put the audio signal through an amplifier, which by design amplifies the input. Any anomaly will be amplified. 
 

I don’t know enough about how video works and the internal parts of mass produced televisions, to know what we’d be testing. 

[audiobomber]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure where the content would come from. In addition, it’s a little different because we put the audio signal through an amplifier, which by design amplifies the input. Any anomaly will be amplified. 
 

I don’t know enough about how video works and the internal parts of mass produced televisions, to know what we’d be testing. 

And, I wouldn't care anyway, having very little interest or knowledge of video. I'm an audiophile, not a videophile. Totally different hobby.

[plissken]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure where the content would come from. In addition, it’s a little different because we put the audio signal through an amplifier, which by design amplifies the input. Any anomaly will be amplified. 
 

I don’t know enough about how video works and the internal parts of mass produced televisions, to know what we’d be testing. 

 

https://www.demolandia.net/4k-video-test.html

 

I think we would be eyeball testing, right? See which looks better. We would want two same, calibrated, TV's.

[audiobomber]

21 hours ago, matthias said:

I think that hardwired ethernet has only an advantage up to a certain length.

Distance would likely make a difference, but why do you think hardwired is better at any distance? I believe that's what this thread is asking. Have you found a relevant test or source I could read?

[lmitche]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:19 PM, audiobomber said:

Thanks. I'm actually using the TP-Link RE580D, which has the advantage of a separate power supply. I already had this device for extending my network upstairs, replaced it with an RE450 for upstairs wi-fi and moved the 580D to my audio system, set it for no broadcast, powered with a Zero-Zone 12V LPS. 

Thanks the reference to the TP-Link RE580D. This looks very much like the Linksys RE9000 in use here.  Both seem to have 3 independent radios. Can the 2.4ghz bands be disabled or suppressed?

[audiobomber]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Thanks the reference to the TP-Link RE580D. This looks very much like the Linksys RE9000 in use here.  Both seem to have 3 independent radios. Can the 2.4ghz bands be disabled or suppressed?

Yes, you can selectively connect via 2.4 or 5Ghz , and disable either or both broadcast bands.

[matthias]

21 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Distance would likely make a difference, but why do you think hardwired is better at any distance? I believe that's what this thread is asking. Have you found a relevant test or source I could read?

 

I like WiFi and do not think that hardwired is better at any distance.

According to the posts on this thread there seems to be consensus to separate the WAP from the devices and connect both with wired ethernet of fiber.

I think it is remarkable when a high end cable manufacturer prefers WiFi to longer runs of their own ethernet cable.

What I would like to see is a valid comparison of 2,4GHz radio vs 5GHz radio strictly from a SQ perspective with only one of the radios active.

 

Matt

 

[matthias]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thanks the reference to the TP-Link RE580D. This looks very much like the Linksys RE9000 in use here.  Both seem to have 3 independent radios. Can the 2.4ghz bands be disabled or suppressed?

 

In my understanding the RE580D is dual band. From the specs the RE650 is much superior but does not have the option to connect an external PS like the RE580D.

 

Matt

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

I like WiFi and do not think that hardwired is better at any distance.

If you live in a house, use Mesh WiFi 6 of high quality, you could very well be correct. As long we’re not talking about high speed. 

 

1 hour ago, matthias said:

What I would like to see is a valid comparison of 2,4GHz radio vs 5GHz radio strictly from a SQ perspective with only one of the radios active.

 

Ha, now we’re back to bits are bits. 

 

Or the more correct question is how much phase noise and possible other measured EMI/RFI can travel from that WiFi point and further. Is it more than a switch? And again if you like Plisken, and only transfer files to a buffer, it won’t matter at all. (If he stands correct). 
 

I don’t think phase noise measurements is a normal figure for network equipment. 
What would be a valid comparison? I think you’re asking a impossible question. 
My answer would be your ears in your setup. 
 

https://www.controleng.com/articles/understanding-rfi-and-emis-effects/

 

https://www.networkworld.com/article/2215287/coping-with-wi-fi-s-biggest-problem-interference.html
 

https://interferencetechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2017_Wireless-RFI.pdf

My question is what lies behind a possible better SQ in a dedicated network for audio only.

To me, it doesn’t make much sense to use dedicated network. Using fiber does. Cause you avoid antenna effects from cables as well as other thing that might travel along. I guess same could apply to wireless. 

[audiobomber]

6 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

If you live in a house, use Mesh WiFi 6 of high quality, you could very well be correct. As long we’re not talking about high speed. 

 

This is a good read.

 

[plissken]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thanks the reference to the TP-Link RE580D. This looks very much like the Linksys RE9000 in use here.  Both seem to have 3 independent radios. Can the 2.4ghz bands be disabled or suppressed?

 

Most, if not all, current AP's will allow you to disable the 2.4G radio.

[watts]

On 2/12/2021 at 11:19 AM, audiobomber said:

 ...........set it for no broadcast,......

 

On 2/14/2021 at 6:19 AM, audiobomber said:

Yes, you can selectively connect via 2.4 or 5Ghz , and disable either or both broadcast bands.

I have the same streamer as you, and I have been playing around a little so far between wireless and wired. For several years it has been hooked up with a 50 ft stretch of ethernet patch that I assembled myself,  which goes up into the ceiling from the Telus supplied T3200M gateway (which unfortunately is in the same room 20 feet away from my rack), and then down the opposite wall to the Playpoint.

 

I have the gateway set to choose between 2.4 and 5 Ghz on its own; some setting whereby it senses which device works best on whatever frequency? I am not sure what frequency the exaSound chooses on wireless. 

 

On wireless I believe I hear just a little more grain, I believe you said hashiness, so that sounds like the same description, which I suppose is some sort of noise. But it is close. Really close. Either is acceptable but of course the whole point of this hobby is pushing the envelope. I have been doing plenty of reading on ethernet switches ( etherregen, boy, this is an interesting reading adventure!) and more pricey or shielded cabling. I have ordered a  $20 Monoprice 50' cat7 cable and will see what difference this might make. (yes, I have read information on grounding issues due to shielding where some suggest cat6 is best, but some still preferred cat8) Maybe the grain on wireless would be more apparent with a different cable... 

 

I am certainly not a knowledge source regarding computers or networking, so I was hoping you or someone else can clarify the below, and possibly advise me on the network setup. (I am streaming Roon using a iphone 7 as controller)

 

• When you say no broadcast, is that setting it up for "hidden" access point? Does it "spray" less waves in this setting? 
• What other settings in this gateway might improve the sound? This is the only wireless access device in the house, other than a frequency extender (Actiontec web6000) at the other end of the house, which Telus put in as wifey had signal problems in the bedroom above. Both are supplied by Telus, and I didn't/don't pay for either boxes, but I am giving them $1200 a year for internet access :) 
• I could place the gateway just outside the room, but what difference would being behind a door and sheet of drywall and another 5 feet make? 

Thinking about how one balance's between limiting em radiation in ones stereo room, but needing wifi to control Roon.

 

I am now going to read the article you linked above. :) 

[audiobomber]

3 hours ago, watts said:

• When you say no broadcast, is that setting it up for "hidden" access point? Does it "spray" less waves in this setting? 

No, the SSD is not hidden. My router sends a wi-fi signal to a range extender. The range extender is configured to receive wi-fi, but does not broadcast wi-fi. The Playpoint is connected to the extender via ethernet cable, which automatically disables wi-fi reception.

 

Eliminating the copper connection between the router (or switch), and the extender provides perfect galvanic isolation, unlike the isolation provided by ethernet, which is never complete. Disabling the wi-fi broadcast radio in the extender and the wi-fi receiver in the Playpoint streamer quiets the digital noise. I went one step further and added a linear power supply to my extender.

 

Note that there are also routers and dedicated access points that can be used for this purpose, not just range extenders. 

 

[watts]

24 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

No, the SSD is not hidden. My router sends a wi-fi signal to a range extender. The range extender is configured to receive wi-fi, but does not broadcast wi-fi. The Playpoint is connected to the extender via ethernet cable, which automatically disables wi-fi reception.

 

Eliminating the copper connection between the router (or switch), and the extender provides perfect galvanic isolation, unlike the isolation provided by ethernet, which is never complete. Disabling the wi-fi broadcast radio in the extender and the wi-fi receiver in the Playpoint streamer quiets the digital noise. 

 

That makes sense. Thanks. 

[R1200CL]

On 12/3/2021 at 7:10 PM, audiobomber said:

The range extender is configured to receive wi-fi, but does not broadcast wi-fi.

What brand and model ? 

[barrows]

WiFi has a couple of advantages over copper based ethernet connections: it provides (electrical) isolation for one thing, and of course it is more convenient for many who may have difficulty running an Ethernet cable to the audio system.  Then there are the disadvantages:  While WiFi "should" be reliable for even very hi res streaming, in practice, there do seem to be glitches no matter how well sorted the set up is.  One cannot escape the problem that airborne signals are susceptible to interferences.  These kinds of problems can vary by location of course, some users may be able to set up a robust WiFi Network that does not glitch even with DSD 512 and 1024 (maybe).

Then there are the sound quality problems, a WiFi transceiver close to the audio system is almost certainly going to degrade sound quality at least a bit.  I know a lot of very clever audio equipment designers who go to great lengths trying to reduce sources of RFI in components, and to design components such that they are less susceptible to sonic degradation due to RFI.  So it seems counterintuitive to actually place a powerful RFI transceiver in the audio system itself! 

But-some components will have more problems with this than others-for example if a component takes full advantage of balanced signaling internally (many balanced components can be have balanced inputs and outputs which do not keep signals balanced all the way through) they may be able to avoid most signal degradation caused by the RFI-a clever class D amplifier designer like Bruno Putzeys knows how to design circuits and lay out PCBs which are virtually immune to sonic problems arising from high frequency interferences...

 

Perhaps it is time for an "Audiophile" WLAN to be made for those who might need to use WiFi, perhaps if the WLAN is located at least some distance from the audio system, uses a fiber connection to the Renderer in the audio system, and is well isolated on its AC supply from the audio system (perhaps on the opposite phase) very hi fidelity can be maintained...

For myself, I am sticking with a fiber connection as I have no need to use WiFi for audio in my home.

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, barrows said:

Perhaps it is time for an "Audiophile" WLAN

If one could use laser beams, maybe that would be an innovative way, with the limitation that you must be able to route it without anything blocking the line of sight. But rounding corners should be easy.