Pareto Audio Listening Experience

[bobfa]

Over the past several years, I have been designing and building my computing hardware for music playback.  I have followed in the footsteps of several others here on AS;  @The Computer Audiophile, @austinpop, @Nenon , @romaz, @lmitche, to name a few.   I have replaced the power supply in a mac mini using the UpTone Audio kit.  I built up my NUC and Xeon endpoints and servers.  I have also tried many configurations with a single box system, two box systems, and fancy USB cards.  I have fussed over wireless and network switches.   Almost everything I have done has improved the sound quality of the music in my home.  Intermixed with the DIY, I have also tried a few commercial streamers and servers and have not gotten to where I want to be.

 

I needed to do something different.   After some frustrations during my review of the Bucarhardt A500 speakers, I contacted Larry at Pareto Audio to build a Roon server.  We worked together to develop the hardware plan that fit my needs.

 

My system has four terra-bytes of internal storage, and I have three audio endpoints and one network endpoint using the ADNACO USB system.  I am using two HDPLEX power supplies for the server and Allo Shanti supplies for the endpoints.  Two weeks into running my system, Larry sent me some additional RAM that improved things further!

 

The server is in the basement, and  I have run 10GBit fiber to three of the four planned locations. I have not decided on the final spot for the fourth endpoint.

I have been running the server for about a month.  I was able to get it broken-in and did A/B testing during my upcoming review of the FIVE17 speakers from Heavenly Soundworks.  

 

I am thrilled with the improvements that I now have in my systems.  The server has virtually eliminated that digital edge I was still observing with my server.  The backgrounds are a lot blacker and more deep-felt, if you understand what I mean.

 

One of my most improved listening points is my Schiit Lyr3 with their Multibit DAC into my MassDrop HD6xx headphones.  It is now even more of a gem for my listening.  The musical presence with my Hugo 2 into the RAD-0 headphones has more elegance and feeling of reality.    

This week I am listening with a loaner Chord DAVE DAC to my FIVE17 speakers, and I am in very pleased!  

 

[Darryl R]

29 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Over the past several years, I have been designing and building my computing hardware for music playback.  I have followed in the footsteps of several others here on AS;  @The Computer Audiophile, @austinpop, @Nenon , @romaz, @lmitche, to name a few.   I have replaced the power supply in a mac mini using the UpTone Audio kit.  I built up my NUC and Xeon endpoints and servers.  I have also tried many configurations with a single box system, two box systems, and fancy USB cards.  I have fussed over wireless and network switches.   Almost everything I have done has improved the sound quality of the music in my home.  Intermixed with the DIY, I have also tried a few commercial streamers and servers and have not gotten to where I want to be.

 

Hi Bob,

 

I'd like to know more about the Adnaco tech.  In the DIY Server thread we've kicked around ideas for remoting without Ethernet.  This looks like one.  Do the devices see the others just as peripherals?

[bobfa]

17 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

Where is it you "want to be?"  And do you think that could ever be a fixed point?

I am not sure it is a fixed point but it is a target.  The main goal is simpler.  Less hardware and software.  I like headphone listening so a couple of places around the house where I can do that is nice. It is also helpful when I want to listen and others do not.  

 

The speaker system has to fit into my listening space.  That is not only size but looks.  It is my living room.  

 

The sound quality should not annoy me, it should delight me!

 

I think I have zeroed in on the system design.  I have one more things to round it out.    

 

Right now in 2021 the RAD-0 headphones, the FIVE17 speakers and the Pareto Audio Server are fixed points.  So is the LYR3 with the HD-6xx cans. Roon software is my keystone for useably.  It has taken me 50 years to get here.  I am not sure that here is fixed.  It is at least better grounded than ever before.

 

 

[Darryl R]

You got my quote before I decided to be a little less philosophical and inquire about the Adnaco stuff.

[KMan]

@bobfa Thanks for starting this thread, I have been using Pareto Audio AMD (AL based)  Roon/HQP server built by @lmitchesince last fall. I was using i7 NUC based server prior to that also built by Larry. 

 

I use a four port Adnaco card, with two USB endpoints. One connected to Chord DAVE and another connected to Re9000 wireless access point. The AMD server is powered by dual rail SR7T and the endpoints are powered by SR75Ts. Everything is plugged into sound Applications TT7

 

I had followed the Novel thread, I started with the spaghetti and then moved to i7 NUC and now settled on the AMD server. I do not know where this journey will take me but I am extremely happy with my current setup. There is no sign of digital glare, delivery is smooth, clear and dynamic; timing and transparency just the way I like it.

 

I use Roon for discovery but most of my playback is via HQP. As Larry made his tweaks over the period of last several months, I heard clear improvements in clarity and dynamics. Some of these changes were Roon specific while others were related to OS, HW and bios. As a result playback via both Roon and HQP continued to  improve. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[frederick184]

Another vote for Larry.  I’ve learned a lot from him and he’s tolerated my continual back and forth on where I’m headed with my system.  
 

His experience and endless hours of experimentation have resulted in a system that has never sounded so good here. 
 

You won’t go wrong in having Larry build you a server, and can be assured of continuous support in getting it setup to your needs.  
 

Colin

[barrows]

I am little confused here?  I received a notification of this thread in my e-mail for some reason, but this is a thread I do not subscribe to.  Also, it appears that this thread is an advertisement for a commercial product?  Please forgive me if I am wrong @The Computer Audiophile?

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, barrows said:

I am little confused here?  I received a notification of this thread in my e-mail for some reason, but this is a thread I do not subscribe to.  Also, it appears that this thread is an advertisement for a commercial product?  Please forgive me if I am wrong @The Computer Audiophile?

Please forward me the notification chris@computeraudiophile.......

[bobfa]

2 hours ago, Darryl R said:

I'd like to know more about the Adnaco tech.

Darryl,

 

I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.  The ADNACO extends the PCIE bus out through fiber to a PCIE USB card.  Power that up and plug in your devices.  I have played with it enough to really embrace it.

 

[KMan]

At least part of the  magic is because of the direct to CPU PCIE slots the Adnaco card goes into and also practicing some good hygiene by putting some distance between the Adnaco endpoint and DAC (Im 2020 Sablon USB cable in my case), using fiber that is tolerant to bends (5m, looped ,  10 inch diameter loop), fsp rolling etc, etc each having had their impact.

 

PS: I have no financial affiliation with any of the products mentioned above or my prior post. I have known Larry for the past couple of years as a a his customer. He has never once requested to post anything about his offerings.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, just so everyone is clear on community rules, I want to state that Bob is posting this topic as a user of Larry's services. Any user is free to post such a topic on any service or product as long as it's done with a good motive and not in collaboration with the person or company benefitting from the post, in an effort to bypass community rules. 

 

If Larry wishes to discuss his products / services further, he will be required to open a sponsored forum like other manufacturers here on AS. 

[Superdad]

55 minutes ago, barrows said:

Also, it appears that this thread is an advertisement for a commercial product?

 

How so?  @bobfa, (who has also formally reviewed products in feature articles here) shared his experience with an AudioLinux server that member @lmitche built for him. Does not seem any different--or more of an advertisement--than any other listening impressions thread that a member might start.

Larry, formerly as NUCklehead Audio (and renamed to Pareto as he has mostly moved away from Intel NUCs), has been offering his personalized services as a sideline for a couple of years. Yet he has never actively promoted on the forums--it's all word of mouth--and he has not posted in this thread. So hard to see this as an advertisement. And the systems he assembles and tunes for people are all custom to their needs, so I'd hardly call his offerings a "commercial product."

 

Full disclosure:

Larry and I are friends, he is an informal business advisor to UpTone (he has vast business management experience), he has been a beta tester of multiple UpTone products, and a couple of years ago he built for me a little Celeron NUC that I use as my DAC-attached endpoint. Several times he has remotely performed AudioLinux updates and custom AL tweaks which have, in realtime made my jaw drop.

He is highly ethical, generous with his time, and has very good ears.

 

Peace out. 

[Darryl R]

30 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

 

I know how you feel ;)

 

30 minutes ago, bobfa said:

The ADNACO extends the PCIE bus out through fiber to a PCIE USB card.  Power that up and plug in your devices.  I have played with it enough to really embrace it.

 

 

So I assume the server sees just the PCIe devices as if they were a "chassis extension," but yet the remote PCIe card is connected to another processor?  I wouldn't expect it would see the entire remote computer.

[bobfa]

2 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

I know how you feel ;)

 

 

So I assume the server sees just the PCIe devices as if they were a "chassis extension," but yet the remote machine is another processor?  I wouldn't expect it would see the entire computer, but only as if it were "chassis extension?"  In other words, everything is running under the same OS?

The little cards I have are just PCiE to USB interfaces.  So there are two USB ports thirty feet away from the server.  From my view in Roon.  I plug a DAC into the USB port and AL/Roon see the device as an attached to the Server DAC.    There have been several mentions of the ADNACO stuff on the forum for years.  I did not understand it until now.  This is a neat trick in our basket of tools.

[soares]

4 hours ago, bobfa said:

Over the past several years, I have been designing and building my computing hardware for music playback.  I have followed in the footsteps of several others here on AS;  @The Computer Audiophile, @austinpop, @Nenon , @romaz, @lmitche, to name a few.   I have replaced the power supply in a mac mini using the UpTone Audio kit.  I built up my NUC and Xeon endpoints and servers.  I have also tried many configurations with a single box system, two box systems, and fancy USB cards.  I have fussed over wireless and network switches.   Almost everything I have done has improved the sound quality of the music in my home.  Intermixed with the DIY, I have also tried a few commercial streamers and servers and have not gotten to where I want to be.

 

I needed to do something different.   After some frustrations during my review of the Bucarhardt A500 speakers, I contacted Larry at Pareto Audio to build a Roon server.  We worked together to develop the hardware plan that fit my needs.

 

My system has four terra-bytes of internal storage, and I have three audio endpoints and one network endpoint using the ADNACO USB system.  I am using two HDPLEX power supplies for the server and Allo Shanti supplies for the endpoints.  Two weeks into running my system, Larry sent me some additional RAM that improved things further!

 

The server is in the basement, and  I have run 10GBit fiber to three of the four planned locations. I have not decided on the final spot for the fourth endpoint.

I have been running the server for about a month.  I was able to get it broken-in and did A/B testing during my upcoming review of the FIVE17 speakers from Heavenly Soundworks.  

 

I am thrilled with the improvements that I now have in my systems.  The server has virtually eliminated that digital edge I was still observing with my server.  The backgrounds are a lot blacker and more deep-felt, if you understand what I mean.

 

One of my most improved listening points is my Schiit Lyr3 with their Multibit DAC into my MassDrop HD6xx headphones.  It is now even more of a gem for my listening.  The musical presence with my Hugo 2 into the RAD-0 headphones has more elegance and feeling of reality.    

This week I am listening with a loaner Chord DAVE DAC to my FIVE17 speakers, and I am in very pleased!  

 

Hi Bob, would you mind sharing the specs of your system and the total cost? Thanks 

Jorge

[Darryl R]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

The little cards I have are just PCiE to USB interfaces.  So there are two USB ports thirty feet away from the server.  From my view in Roon.  I plug a DAC into the USB port and AL/Roon see the device as an attached to the Server DAC.    There have been several mentions of the ADNACO stuff on the forum for years.  I did not understand it until now.  This is a neat trick in our basket of tools.

 

What type of enclosure are the remote USB ports in?

 

EDIT: disregard, I looked at your link again and I see the USB enclosure is part of their package.  Kind of looks like a little FMC with USB out instead of RJ45.  So its a souped-up USB system.  I hadn't heard about this until today.

[bobfa]

Look on their website. I am away from computer for a while. 

[sdolezalek]

This is a really interesting configuration, but I'm wondering how you might use it in the form that Miska sems to be favoring of putting Roon and HQPlayer on two separate CPUs?  Could the downstream PCIE to USB interface be on a machine that handles the HQP processing and still function in the way that Larry/Pareto intends?  Or is the whole idea that you have simply used fiber to allow you to make a local fiber to usb connection to the DAC while leaving the computng horsepower in another room?

[bobfa]

The Adnaco system in use is remote USB

[bobfa]

1 hour ago, soares said:

Hi Bob, would you mind sharing the specs of your system and the total cost? Thanks 

Jorge

The costs include design, construction, setup data transfer and support. The hardware is a subset of that.  The hardware is. AMD RYZEN without on board graphics. An ASUS motherboard, 32gb RAM. 32gb Optane boot. A removable graphics card for setup. 4tb NVME storage. HDPLEX 5 case. The ADNACO four port card. Three ADNACO USB endpoints. The SFPs and the fiber cables. 

The pricing was fair for the work being done. I am not comfortable discussing the pricing. 
 

 

 

[One and a half]

Just goes to show that computer audio needs two boxes separated by distance, the paradigm from Jriver where you only need a single is now put to sleep.

 

@bobfa, with all this tinkering, do you have enough motivation to try a dedicated end point in a Lumin and end it all? 😉 I've stopped at the Lumin, now two years on, nothing to do but enjoy the music and not listen to noise!

[bobfa]

All,

 

I have not been paid or offered services to write what I did.  These are my observations on the hardware and services I have received. 
 

I think it would be cool if @lmitchewould sponsor a forum on  Audiophile Style. 
 

I have just written another review for the community that will be published soon.  That is not sponsored either. Those of us who write articles here spend a lot of effort. It is more out of love to share than anything else. 
 

I am digging into a DAC selection process for my systems right now.  I have purchased the gear on my own. I very likely will have over spent in doing this. 
 

RJF
 

 

[Darryl R]

38 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I very likely will have over spent in doing this. 

 

Isn't that the story of our lives with this hobby!

[soares]

2 hours ago, bobfa said:

The costs include design, construction, setup data transfer and support. The hardware is a subset of that.  The hardware is. AMD RYZEN without on board graphics. An ASUS motherboard, 32gb RAM. 32gb Optane boot. A removable graphics card for setup. 4tb NVME storage. HDPLEX 5 case. The ADNACO four port card. Three ADNACO USB endpoints. The SFPs and the fiber cables. 

The pricing was fair for the work being done. I am not comfortable discussing the pricing. 
 

 

 

Thanks Bob! I understand the point on the cost. On the Adnaco cards. The four port cards are Ethernet? Fiber? And the the option not to include a graphic card for CUDA with HQPlayer was related to jitter? 
 

[bobfa]

30 minutes ago, soares said:

Thanks Bob! I understand the point on the cost. On the Adnaco cards. The four port cards are Ethernet? Fiber? And the the option not to include a graphic card for CUDA with HQPlayer was related to jitter? 
 

I do not use HQ Player so I did not include a graphics card in my machine.

 

I created a blog entry on the Adnaco system here:  

 

 

I do not want to clutter the impressions thread with technical info.