The development of Giesemann OCXO Ref 10M Master Clock

[R1200CL]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:27 AM, AfterDark. said:

For more details on Group Buy please visit the link:

What’s the difference between the Group Buy and this HK$ 300 cheaper option ?https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-時鐘?variant=32205997473910

[R1200CL]

On 2/8/2021 at 3:02 PM, AfterDark. said:

Yes, the phase noise measurement can only perform on sine wave, the square wave is converted with it. The isolation circuit and sine to square wave convertor is designed to have little change or affect the phase noise measurement. 

 

It’s my understanding you’re measuring each product individually. Correct ?

Can you show photos of such an test ?

 

Where in the chain is isolation done. Before or after square wave conversion ?

Any reason for the choice ?

[James Stephens]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@James Stephens

It's my understanding that Adrian isn’t doing any pure DC powered clocks. I have asked for this.

This would lower the price. And possible shipping cost. And hopefully raise clock quality as you can use your own trusted LPS. All his clocks has internal LPS. 
However some clocks can use his upgraded LPS as an add on. 
 

It’s also my understanding that all clocks can be delivered with various OCXO options. 
However, at the moment he’s only suggesting 3 versions for the 3 output clock. 
 

As we don’t know how well isolation is done, and lack of DC inputs I personally will probably purchase 2 single double crown instead of a triple double crown. 

I’m awaiting purchasing until I understand how many of John’s new design products has externally clock input. I’m also considering a Singxer SU-2 as an upgrade to my SU-1, as the SU-2 has clock input.

 

This will influence my clock purchase. 

 

Ok thanks. I was looking at the Queen Square Wave Special Edition listed here that is Square Wave, 75 Ohm and looks like it accepts a DC Input:

 

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-reference-master-clock-audiophilestyle-edition?variant=32208722854006

 

Perhaps Adrian can clarify.....

 

Best,

James

 

[AfterDark.]

On 2/28/2021 at 3:23 AM, James Stephens said:

Hello Adrian,

 

For your OXCO only solutions I am seeing 2 choices for 10MHz, Square Wave, 75 Ohm Output as is recommended for the standard EtherRegen:

 

1) Single output, Queen, DC input.

 

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-reference-master-clock-audiophilestyle-edition?variant=32208722854006

 

2) Triple isolated output, Prince Queen or Emperor Double Crown, integrated LPS.

 

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-x-triple-integrals-integrated

 

Is that correct? Just want to make sure I am not missing something.

 

Thanks very much.

 

Best,

James

 

Hello James, 

 

Thanks for your interested. We have two choices for 10Mhz, Square Wave, 75ohm Output. 

 

The Single output, Queen, required external power 12VDC, this version is the best seller for EtherREGEN customer. The version is special edition for EtherREGEN, when we know John recommended Square Wave. 

 

The Triple isolated output is designed according to the requirements from R1200CL, after we released a single output version. We believe there is more device can accept 10M Master Clock, so customer will require multiple output of 10M.

 

For example, most customer have EtherREGEN in the system, Mutec MC3-USB, or Esoteric DAC, or Gustard X26pro DAC, multiple network switch. The result of using one 10M Master Clock and connection/ Sync to all audiophile gears will have huge benefit on sounding. 

 

We are building a new Buffalo BS-GS2016, build in Giesemann Clock connected to two units of GS2016, and one extra 10M Master Output to connect EtherREGEN or Mutec MC3-USB

Two Buffalo BS-GS2012 in one box. The DC input socket is on the left. The 10M Master Clock output is on the right side. 

 

The Giesemann Clock is under the 3mm Carbon Fiber, which helps to eliminate the EMI noises and provide rigid platform to optimise the performance of OCXO. 

 

The R-Core Transformer LPS Modules, provide the power to Giesemann Clock independently. 

The motherboard from Buffalo GS-BS2016 switch will be powered by external Linear Power Supply (LPS) 

 

MIFLEX KPCU-01  Copper Foil Paper / Polypropylene in Oil Audio Capacitor

 

[R1200CL]

8 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

required external power 12VDC,

But you still have a LPS inside ?

(Now I’m confused). 

[AfterDark.]

10 hours ago, R1200CL said:

But you still have a LPS inside ?

(Now I’m confused). 

 

Hello! R1200CL,

 

The Giesemann clock single output version does not have LPS inside, so if you have excellent LPS, it could be help to lower the phase noise and performance too. 

 

The Giesemann clock triple output version, is build in with LPS + R Core Transformer inside 

 

Hope it can help.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark.

 

 

[James Stephens]

9 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hello James, 

 

Thanks for your interested. We have two choices for 10Mhz, Square Wave, 75ohm Output. 

 

The Single output, Queen, required external power 12VDC, this version is the best seller for EtherREGEN customer. The version is special edition for EtherREGEN, when we know John recommended Square Wave. 

 

The Triple isolated output is designed according to the requirements from R1200CL, after we released a single output version. We believe there is more device can accept 10M Master Clock, so customer will require multiple output of 10M.

 

For example, most customer have EtherREGEN in the system, Mutec MC3-USB, or Esoteric DAC, or Gustard X26pro DAC, multiple network switch. The result of using one 10M Master Clock and connection/ Sync to all audiophile gears will have huge benefit on sounding. 

 

We are building a new Buffalo BS-GS2016, build in Giesemann Clock connected to two units of GS2016, and one extra 10M Master Output to connect EtherREGEN. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks very much.

 

[ambre]

10 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hello James, 

 

Thanks for your interested. We have two choices for 10Mhz, Square Wave, 75ohm Output. 

 

The Single output, Queen, required external power 12VDC, this version is the best seller for EtherREGEN customer. The version is special edition for EtherREGEN, when we know John recommended Square Wave. 

 

The Triple isolated output is designed according to the requirements from R1200CL, after we released a single output version. We believe there is more device can accept 10M Master Clock, so customer will require multiple output of 10M.

 

For example, most customer have EtherREGEN in the system, Mutec MC3-USB, or Esoteric DAC, or Gustard X26pro DAC, multiple network switch. The result of using one 10M Master Clock and connection/ Sync to all audiophile gears will have huge benefit on sounding. 

 

We are building a new Buffalo BS-GS2016, build in Giesemann Clock connected to two units of GS2016, and one extra 10M Master Output to connect EtherREGEN or Mutec MC3-USB

Two Buffalo BS-GS2012 in one box. The DC input socket is on the left. The 10M Master Clock output is on the right side. 

 

The Giesemann Clock is under the 3mm Carbon Fiber, which helps to eliminate the EMI noises and provide rigid platform to optimise the performance of OCXO. 

 

The R-Core Transformer LPS Modules, provide the power to Giesemann Clock independently. 

The motherboard from Buffalo GS-BS2016 switch will be powered by external Linear Power Supply (LPS) 

 

 

Hi Adrian,

are building a new Buffalo BS-GS2016,

 build in
the 2x 16  switches are feed by Giesemann at 25MHz and single 10 mhz suppose Sin wave? 

Do you also plan same 2008 version too?

that is my opinion enough 2x 8ports?

 

And sfs is also connected with 25 Mhz clock? Remains a price indication?

 

Regards, Andreas

 

[AfterDark.]

On 2/28/2021 at 9:28 PM, ambre said:

Hi Adrian,

are building a new Buffalo BS-GS2016,

 build in
the 2x 16  switches are feed by Giesemann at 25MHz and single 10 mhz suppose Sin wave? 

Do you also plan same 2008 version too?

that is my opinion enough 2x 8ports?

 

And sfs is also connected with 25 Mhz clock? Remains a price indication?

 

Regards, Andreas

 

 

Hi! Andreas,

 

We may consider the lite version of GS2016, which included one unit of Buffalo BS-GS2016. So, that most audiophile can try on the single version with OCXO Master Clock optimised. We design this unit which is upgradable for user who want to stack up one more unit in the future. The final version will build later next week. 

 

I shall create another section for new product when we have more parts to be assembly next week. 

 

Thanks for your interest. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[R1200CL]

On 2/27/2021 at 9:49 PM, R1200CL said:

What’s the difference between the Group Buy and this HK$ 300 cheaper option ?https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-時鐘?variant=32205997473910

@AfterDark.

Is it a cable we’re paying hks$ 300 extra for ?

 

There are also other unanswered questions.

[AfterDark.]

36 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@AfterDark.

Is it a cable we’re paying hks$ 300 extra for ?

 

There are also other unanswered questions.

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

Thanks for your question. audiophilestyle.com Group Buy is 10% off discount from normal price (Discount Code: audiophilestyle.com), which bundle with Giesemann BNC Clock Cable 1M ($1000) + 75ohm to 50ohm Cybershaft adaptor ($280) for FREE. 

 

Have a nice day.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark.

[R1200CL]

37 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

75ohm to 50ohm Cybershaft adaptor

Is such an adapter equal to have a 50 ohm output ?

I’m discussing of purchasing http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN.htm and he says his standard 50 ohm can be modified, but if an adapter won’t make any difference. 
 

However since Uptone never suggested the use of an adapter in their EtherRegen, I expect things isn’t straight forward. 
 

Is your clocks (the single output once’s), available in both 50 and 75 ohm versions ?
 

Is the cable offered 75 or 50 ohm ?

[AfterDark.]

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Is such an adapter equal to have a 50 ohm output ?

I’m discussing of purchasing http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN.htm and he says his standard 50 ohm can be modified, but if an adapter won’t make any difference. 
 

However since Uptone never suggested the use of an adapter in their EtherRegen, I expect things isn’t straight forward. 
 

Is your clocks (the single output once’s), available in both 50 and 75 ohm versions ?
 

Is the cable offered 75 or 50 ohm ?

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

The adapter made by Cybershaft in Japan is tested last November in 2020, to match the ohm from 50ohm to 75ohm, such as EtherREGEN, Mutec MC3-USB, Esoteric.

 

This adaptor is certified with excellent performance as below:

"By installing CYB-MA01 for EtherREGEN 75ohm external clock input, SWR = 1.0225, showing very good matching.

( The characteristics of SWR = 1.0225 are comparable to inconsistencies on a 1m cable, for example. It's a very small value. )"

 

There is single output version in 50ohm and 75ohm (Queen Square Wave 75ohm Special Edition) which can plug and play to 75ohm devices. 

 

The Giesemann BNC cable is offering both 75ohm and 50ohm. 

 

Thanks for your questions. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark.

 

 

 

QUOTE

 

Dear Adrian,

 

This mail thread was created for technical information exchange.

 

<T001> Impedance matching of external clock input of Uptone EtherREGEN

 

We report using our product CYB-MA01 to make the external clock input of EtherREGEN with 75ohm impedance compatible with 50ohm.

We used the 75ohm EtherREGEN you arranged for us in July.

By installing CYB-MA01 for EtherREGEN 75ohm external clock input, SWR = 1.0225, showing very good matching.

( The characteristics of SWR = 1.0225 are comparable to inconsistencies on a 1m cable, for example. It's a very small value. )

 

This data and photos can be shared and reprinted by you and us.

 

We hope that this information will be useful to you and your customers.

 

We hope that you and we will post new technical information to each other in this email thread.

 

Best regards,

Kenji Hasegawa

 

UNQUOTE

 

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

Impedance matching of external clock input of Uptone EtherREGEN

 

We report using our product CYB-MA01 to make the external clock input of EtherREGEN with 75ohm impedance compatible with 50ohm.

We used the 75ohm EtherREGEN you arranged for us in July.

By installing CYB-MA01 for EtherREGEN 75ohm external clock input, SWR = 1.0225, showing very good matching.

( The characteristics of SWR = 1.0225 are comparable to inconsistencies on a 1m cable, for example. It's a very small value. )

 

And of course the EtherREGEN is available with 50-Ohm BNC (and corresponding 50-Ohm termination resistor on board) upon request with no extra charge--at time of order.

AfterDark takes most of our 50-Ohm units (we build about 10% of them as 50-Ohm with each production run), but we usually keep a few for our other direct customers and dealers. 

 

But the Cybershaft matching balun is just fine if one already has a 75-Ohm EtherREGEN. The price and performance of their impedance balun can not be beat.

[R1200CL]

5 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

There is single output version in 50ohm and 75ohm (Queen Square Wave 75ohm Special Edition) which can plug and play to 75ohm devices. 

Apart from the Queen Square Wave 75 ohm Special edition, the rest of your single output clocks is sine ?

[AfterDark.]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Apart from the Queen Square Wave 75 ohm Special edition, the rest of your single output clocks is sine ?

 

Hi! R1200CL, 

 

That is correct, the best seller Queen Square Wave 75 ohm special edition is tailor made and optimised to work with EtherREGEN. 

 

Thanks for your question. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hi! R1200CL, 

 

That is correct, the best seller Queen Square Wave 75 ohm special edition is tailor made and optimised to work with EtherREGEN. 

 

Thanks for your question. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

So is your design generic, so one could just replace the clock if one was looking for better numbers ?

And if yes, which versions would fit ?

[AfterDark.]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

So is your design generic, so one could just replace the clock if one was looking for better numbers ?

And if yes, which versions would fit ?

 

Hi! R1200CL, 

 

Thanks for your question. The Giesemann clock cannot be replaced with others models, it is because it is not a generic design like CPU socket. 

 

For the upcoming Buffalo BS-GS2016 x Giesemann OCXO Edition. We are trying to fit on the carbon fiber backplate today. 

 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Thanks for a very informative reply.
 

All your external powered clocks is 12V. (2.1mm). 

 

I also noticed you specify 2,5 A. When a clock is heated up, what is the expected current draw ?

Reason to ask, is to verify a possibility to use the Uptone LPS-1.2 

Have you tested this ?

 

So even if a LPS-1.2 can’t be used as a start up power, I was thinking pre-heating the clock to 60 degrees, should be one way of doing this. Or just use one power first minutes and then quickly change to the LPS-1.2. 
 

What is highest possible voltage input ? (Before we should expect damage).

 

Are you able to measure and phase noise variation based on the power supply in use ?

Are you using your own power supply when you’re measuring your final made clocks ?

 

I see you talk a lot about calibration. Does this (individually?) calibration process affect the phase noise ?

 

Is it like after a certain time, a recalibration could be done ?

(I have no idea what this calibration process is). 
 

EDIT:

Your specifications says:

• Required External DC power supply: DC 5V/12V 1A 

This is great. That means all Uptone versions of LPS (the Ultracaps) will work. 
So any voltage setting 5,7,9 or 12 is OK. Any recommendation ?

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Is your Project ClayX WoodMAT included in shipment when purchasing a clock ?

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

https://www.adark.co/products/cybershaft-50ω-10mhz-變壓器型-2分配器-cyb-ds01

 

Can you explain about this spitter ?

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Is the AUDIOPHILEMAT BLACK MOUNTAIN SERIES something made for you exclusively ?

 

[magnuska]

Hi @R1200CL

 

Adrian @AfterDark. has been very kind answering all thinkable questions we might have. 

 

Obviously you have requested a special designed triple output clock. When will you buy that? Just askin🙂

 

"We have just released a triple (Isolated) output version last week as per request from R1200CL. This version will be on Square Wave 75ohm, the BNC connectors will be in 75ohm on the output section for this triple outputs version of Giesemann Clock"

 

[R1200CL]

6 hours ago, magnuska said:

Obviously you have requested a special designed triple output clock.

I’m not the only one requesting this. Also it as designed before my questions about an isolated 3 square wave with selectable 50/75 ohm output DC powered versions. 

[AfterDark.]

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@AfterDark.

Thanks for a very informative reply.
 

All your external powered clocks is 12V. (2.1mm). 

 

I also noticed you specify 2,5 A. When a clock is heated up, what is the expected current draw ?

Reason to ask, is to verify a possibility to use the Uptone LPS-1.2 

Have you tested this ?

 

So even if a LPS-1.2 can’t be used as a start up power, I was thinking pre-heating the clock to 60 degrees, should be one way of doing this. Or just use one power first minutes and then quickly change to the LPS-1.2. 
 

What is highest possible voltage input ? (Before we should expect damage).

 

Are you able to measure and phase noise variation based on the power supply in use ?

Are you using your own power supply when you’re measuring your final made clocks ?

 

I see you talk a lot about calibration. Does this (individually?) calibration process affect the phase noise ?

 

Is it like after a certain time, a recalibration could be done ?

(I have no idea what this calibration process is). 
 

EDIT:

Your specifications says:

• Required External DC power supply: DC 5V/12V 1A 

This is great. That means all Uptone versions of LPS (the Ultracaps) will work. 
So any voltage setting 5,7,9 or 12 is OK. Any recommendation ?

 

Hello! R1200CL,

 

Thanks for your questions. When the clock is heat up, the expected current draw will be lower around 0.5-0.7A, as the temperature is stable and stop generate heat inside. As you mentioned, to heat up the OCXO then use LPS1.2 after 5 minutes will do the tweak. 

 

The Giesemann Clock measurement is done based on the industrial power supply, so the phase noise is conservative indicator. This is good reference point, as you may know, using better Linear Power Supply can actually improve the performance on Giesemann Clock.

  

Sorry for typo, Giesemann requires only  12V DC, so the UpTone LPS1.2 should work just fine with your special tweak. 

 

Adrian