Afterdark Master Clock for Uptone EtherRegen

[AfterDark.]

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@AfterDark.

Would you (or anyone else) happen to know price for this clock ?

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf

 

It seems to be one of the best available in ULN version. 

 

We have no ideas about the price for this clock, ULN version has -119 to -120dbc@1Hz looks good in measurement and ultra short term stability in frequency is a good way to choose for audio application. 

[R1200CL]

10 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

We certainly can arrange a group buy for member of audiophilestyle.com, we are thinking of two models at the moments. 

Would you consider a collaboration with John Swenson’ company ?

Meaning you could design a new clock board with DC in as on option.

(You may even discuss with Alex to supply you LPS 1.2 boards only and put inside your case, not that I think it’s a good idea).

Consider one output vs 2 or 3 outputs, if this complicate the design, lower the numbers, as well raise the price? Isolated outputs may be hard to design, and probably affect phase noise negativity. (I and most I think would prefer 2 or 3 isolated square wave outputs). 
 

Is it realistic to build a DC powered clock with a Morion 336M as an example (or equal numbers in a data sheet) not exceeding HKS 5000 ?

What would you consider as an acceptable number of people in a group buy ?

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

https://www.nelfc.com/ocxo/
Links to datasets next to each model. 

The numbers on Extraordinarily Low Phase Noise looks also here very good. 
I have no idea of cost for one module. 
 

 

 

Is HCMOS/TTL equal to square wave ?

 

Maybe some answers here. 
https://blog.bliley.com/selecting-the-best-signal-type-for-your

 

Sine is best it seems. 

[R1200CL]

14 hours ago, Ponkbutler said:

I am no expert whatsoever,  but that does not seem to be the case. Please see here, for example:

Sinewave outputs are the ‘natural’ output of a crystal oscillator circuit and usually they represent the maximum level of spectral purity that one can expect from an oscillator. By definition a pure sine wave has only a single or fundamental frequency – and with, in the ideal case, no harmonics present. 
 

There is no ‘standard’ output level associated with sinewave outputs as there is in the case of the other output types, with the wave form of a sine input defined (for a given frequency) by the amplitude alone, usually expressed as output power in dBm.

 

Sinewave outputs are meant to drive 50 ohm impedance loads and the PC trace should also be designed to a 50 ohm impedance. Most logic output sources are derived form a sine or clipped sine wave source which degrades the phase noise performance - a sine-wave output is the ideal for demanding low phase noise applications.

 

Read it here. 
https://www.vectron.com/products/literature_library/Signal_Types_and_Terminations.pdf
 

It’s interesting to notice that they advice 50ohm. 

[ambre]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@AfterDark.

Would you (or anyone else) happen to know price for this clock ?

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf

 

It seems to be one of the best available in ULN version. 

Please notice this spec- sheet if dated 2018. For contact see also

 

[R1200CL]

Crazy good numbers. I’m afraid so is the price 😀

https://www.nelfc.com/email/NEL01201.html

 

[MasterWarzombie]

Hi,

I want details for my ER.

1- Etherregen is 75 ohm. The afterdark is 50 ohm. Does the adapator degrade the signal?
2- The QUEEN -SQUARE WAVE 75OHM SPECIAL EDITION is that it is directly into 75 ohm, no need for the adapter?
What is the difference with the other versions?
3-Uptone says on their site that there is no need to add an external clock. He changed his mind with your AfterDark external clock?

 

merci

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

3-Uptone says on their site that there is no need to add an external clock. He changed his mind with your AfterDark external clock?

He, I assume you mean Alex C., hasn’t changed his mind. He has given us phase noise numbers on his Crystek CCHD-575 and said that the Chinese $92 seems to have better phase noise numbers. (As a new clock). 
 

There isn’t any need. But several have found out an external clock will help. This may depend on your system, or even your perception of SQ.

 

If your EtherRegen is a standard 75 ohm, you want a 75 ohm cable and clock. 
 

I can foresee upcoming products designed by John S for Sonore and Uptone will have the option of an external clock. 
Unless there is good reason to standardize on 50 ohm, I expect 75 ohm to be the standard.

 

https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/why-fifty-ohms

Reading the above indicates 50 ohm may be what we want. But I’m not sure it matters enough. 

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/history-of-50-ohms.htm

 

Maybe we even want 30 ohm 😀

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/50-ohm-vs-75-ohm-i-still-don_t-get-it/

 

[Ponkbutler]

20 hours ago, R1200CL said:

It’s interesting to notice that they advice 50ohm. 

I’m not sure whether we can take any of that as more than marketing spin. In the same way that SOtM and Mutec claim the superiority of sine and square wave respectively.

 

This section on master clock applications from an oscillator tutorial online is perhaps more relevant to digital audio:

 

”Microprocessor Crystal Quartz Clocks

We can not finish a Quartz Crystal Oscillatorstutorial without mentioning something about Microprocessor crystal clocks. Virtually all microprocessors, micro-controllers, PICs and CPU’s generally operate using a Quartz Crystal Oscillator as its frequency determining device to generate their clock waveform because as we already know, crystal oscillators provide the highest accuracy and frequency stability compared to resistor-capacitor, (RC) or inductor-capacitor, (LC) oscillators.

The CPU clock dictates how fast the processor can run and process the data with a microprocessor, PIC or micro-controller having a clock speed of 1MHz means that it can process data internally one million times per second at every clock cycle. Generally all that’s needed to produce a microprocessor clock waveform is a crystal and two ceramic capacitors of values ranging between 15 to 33pF as shown below.

Microprocessor Oscillator

 

Most microprocessors, micro-controllers and PIC’s have two oscillator pins labelled OSC1and OSC2 to connect to an external quartz crystal circuit, standard RC oscillator network or even a ceramic resonator. In this type of microprocessor application the Quartz Crystal Oscillator produces a train of continuous square wave pulses whose fundamental frequency is controlled by the crystal itself. This fundamental frequency regulates the flow of instructions that controls the processor device. For example, the master clock and system timing.”

 

The full tutorial is here: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/oscillator/crystal.html

 

The 50 / 75 Ohm is to do with the former being more effective and therefore popular for long (non-audio) connections and therefore the de facto choice until audiophiles found sonic advantages to 75 with the comparatively very short connections we require.

[Superdad]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:33 AM, R1200CL said:

@AfterDark.

Would you (or anyone else) happen to know price for this clock ?

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf

 

It seems to be one of the best available in ULN version. 

About $900 each; minimum order 3 pieces; lead time 14 weeks.

[Superdad]

On 2/6/2021 at 6:22 AM, R1200CL said:

Crazy good numbers. I’m afraid so is the price 😀

https://www.nelfc.com/email/NEL01201.html

You definitely do not want to know the price!

[GMG]

@AfterDark.

 

The 3 output clock looks very interesting

 

I have a few questions if I may:

1. Is there an option to customize the outputs? 2 sine, 1 square, or any other combination
2. Can you produce additional levels of phase? King, Signature?
3. Since you also sell Mutec products I would like to also get your opinion. What do you recommend to add to a system first:
   1. MUTEC MC-3+ SMART CLOCK USB, before the DAC 

   2. GIESEMANN OCXO 10MHZ X TRIPLE OUTPUTS, to only feed the Etherregen

Which would give more improvement in your opinion as first step?

I am thinking of adding both and then have the clock feed both ER and Mutec, but want to get an idea which would be better as first step

 

For reference my signal path is:  ISP network router -> Sonore optical module deluxe-> fiber -> Etheregen -> minidsp SHD studio -> Chord Qutest

 

[AfterDark.]

12 hours ago, GMG said:

@AfterDark.

 

The 3 output clock looks very interesting

 

I have a few questions if I may:

1. Is there an option to customize the outputs? 2 sine, 1 square, or any other combination
2. Can you produce additional levels of phase? King, Signature?
3. Since you also sell Mutec products I would like to also get your opinion. What do you recommend to add to a system first:
   1. MUTEC MC-3+ SMART CLOCK USB, before the DAC 

   2. GIESEMANN OCXO 10MHZ X TRIPLE OUTPUTS, to only feed the Etherregen

Which would give more improvement in your opinion as first step?

I am thinking of adding both and then have the clock feed both ER and Mutec, but want to get an idea which would be better as first step

 

For reference my signal path is:  ISP network router -> Sonore optical module deluxe-> fiber -> Etheregen -> minidsp SHD studio -> Chord Qutest

 

 

Hello GMG,

 

Thanks for your questions on the 3 outputs Giesemann Clock. We are making them possible for group buy if we can finalise the specifications accordingly to R1200CL.

 

Question 1:  The 3 output version is fixed in Square Wave

 

Question 2: The additional levels such as King, Emperor Signature to Giesemann Eva can be customised

 

Question 3: Mutec is an excellent product, we recommend to work with Giesemann Clock.  For using Roon, Tidal or Qobuz for digital streaming, EtherREGEN is a best way to improve the digital playback. 

 

You will be impressed If you connect both Mutec Mc3-USB and EtherREGEN with Giesemann Clock, the improvement will be huge and worth every money spend, especially if you have 2 units of EtherREGEN, and 1 unit of Mutec MC3-USB. So, 3 outputs clock is quite flexible for future upgrades.  

 

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[GMG]

1 hour ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hello GMG,

 

Thanks for your questions on the 3 outputs Giesemann Clock. We are making them possible for group buy if we can finalise the specifications accordingly to R1200CL.

 

Question 1:  The 3 output version is fixed in Square Wave

 

Question 2: The additional levels such as King, Emperor Signature to Giesemann Eva can be customised

 

Question 3: Mutec is an excellent product, we recommend to work with Giesemann Clock.  For using Roon, Tidal or Qobuz for digital streaming, EtherREGEN is a best way to improve the digital playback. 

 

You will be impressed If you connect both Mutec Mc3-USB and EtherREGEN with Giesemann Clock, the improvement will be huge and worth every money spend, especially if you have 2 units of EtherREGEN, and 1 unit of Mutec MC3-USB. So, 3 outputs clock is quite flexible for future upgrades.  

 

Adrian

AfterDark. 

Thanks Adrian

 

I already have and love the ER. 
I need to spread out my upgrades so wonder which do you recommend to get first, the Mutec or the Giesemann?

 

Also, does the Mutec accept sine or square wave clock signal?

[AfterDark.]

20 minutes ago, GMG said:

Thanks Adrian

 

I already have and love the ER. 
I need to spread out my upgrades so wonder which do you recommend to get first, the Mutec or the Giesemann?

 

Also, does the Mutec accept sine or square wave clock signal?

 

Hello! GMG,

 

Since you already have one lovely ER, we suggest to add the Giesemann to see the results first. We are quite confidence this is a nice adds on to work with EtherREGEN. 

 

The Mutec can accept both sine and square wave clock signal too.

 

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

 

[AfterDark.]

On 2/7/2021 at 12:23 AM, MasterWarzombie said:

Hi,

I want details for my ER.

1- Etherregen is 75 ohm. The afterdark is 50 ohm. Does the adapator degrade the signal?
2- The QUEEN -SQUARE WAVE 75OHM SPECIAL EDITION is that it is directly into 75 ohm, no need for the adapter?
What is the difference with the other versions?
3-Uptone says on their site that there is no need to add an external clock. He changed his mind with your AfterDark external clock?

 

merci

 

HI! MasterWarzombi,

 

Thanks for your question related to Giesemann clock and EtherREGEN.

 

Here is the answer:

 

Question 1 -  We will provide the matching ohm adaptor which is made from Cybershaft, and they have certified with measuring instrument, to ensure they are in lab grade product for audio application. 

 

• Agilent E5061A Network Analysis
• HP35678A 50ohm Calibration Kit
• HP11854A 50ohm BNC Accessory Kit
• Wiltron 75ohm Termination 26N75A 

 

AfterDark. is collaborated with Cybershaft to promote their excellent product along with EtherREGEN. Mr. Kenji san from Cybershaft give us more information in related to the matching adaptors from last November 2020. 

 

 

 

QUOTE

 

Dear Adrian,

 

This mail thread was created for technical information exchange.

 

<T001> Impedance matching of external clock input of Uptone EtherREGEN

 

We report using our product CYB-MA01 to make the external clock input of EtherREGEN with 75ohm impedance compatible with 50ohm.

We used the 75ohm EtherREGEN you arranged for us in July.

By installing CYB-MA01 for EtherREGEN 75ohm external clock input, SWR = 1.0225, showing very good matching.

( The characteristics of SWR = 1.0225 are comparable to inconsistencies on a 1m cable, for example. It's a very small value. )

 

This data and photos can be shared and reprinted by you and us.

 

We hope that this information will be useful to you and your customers.

 

We hope that you and we will post new technical information to each other in this email thread.

 

Best regards,

Kenji Hasegawa

 

UNQUOTED

 

Question 2:  The QUEEN -SQUARE WAVE 75OHM SPECIAL EDITION is that it is directly into 75 ohm, no need for the adapter? 

 

• Yes, Square Wave version is in 75ohm and no adaptor is required, which is special edition for EtherREGEN.
• We will provide the Giesemann Clock Cable in 75ohm for customer to plug and play when they connect to EtherREGEN. 

 

Question 3: Uptone says on their site that there is no need to add an external clock. He changed his mind with your AfterDark external clock?

 

• We receive a lot of customer feedbacks, the Giesemann Clock is much better perform with EtherREGEN, and cannot live without it. This become a fact that Giesemann Clock is a must for audiophile gears if the device can accept 10M Master Clock signals. 
• For customer, using Mutec MC3-USB, upgrade with Giesemann Clock is the best option for improve their audiophile system.  The system will be more focus and the soundstage is wider and instruments can easily be located in right position. 

 

[MasterWarzombie]

Sorry for my question again from beginners but if I understood correctly, the queen square wave version is 75 Ohm like the ER. Which cable do you supply then in this case, because the cable you supply with Giesemann is 50 ohm.
I do not really understand this story of compatibility between the ohms of different devices. Cable ...., clock etc ...
thank you .

[AfterDark.]

9 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

Sorry for my question again from beginners but if I understood correctly, the queen square wave version is 75 Ohm like the ER. Which cable do you supply then in this case, because the cable you supply with Giesemann is 50 ohm.
I do not really understand this story of compatibility between the ohms of different devices. Cable ...., clock etc ...
thank you .

 

HI! MasterWarzombi,

 

Thanks for your question, the Queen Square Wave version is 75ohm like ER, so we will provide the other version of Giesemann BNC cable in 75ohm. 

 

This is important to match both cable and 10M output with the same 75 ohm or 50ohm for best sounding. 

 

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

 

[Ricardo007]

can the emperor be customized to implement this marvel clock:

https://www.nelfc.com/email/NEL01201.html

[AfterDark.]

29 minutes ago, Ricardo007 said:

can the emperor be customized to implement this marvel clock:

https://www.nelfc.com/email/NEL01201.html

 

Hi! Ricardo007,

 

The OCXO clock use inside Giesemann is far better than the caption clock above. So, we do not plan to customise and implement this clock. 

 

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[R1200CL]

@Ricardo007

I guess there exist, or is possible, to have a generic PCB where you only change the clock. 
I’ve studied a few OCXO data sheets and it seems to be some sort of standard size and pin configuration. 
Also power to a clock seems pretty standard, and can be chosen when order. 
 

I would therefore assume a 1 to 3 generic PCB’s, could cover a lot of various clocks.

Also impedance is just the connector it self to determine. 
 

If this is how AfterDark is doing it, I have one idea. I hope I may explain a bit later on. 
I haven’t have time to study data sheets used by AfterDark, but you can easily do this yourself, and find out if it’s interchangeable. 
 

In the best case you can fit such a clock yourself. Order a clock without a clock. 
I think, when you’re told price and delivery time, you may have a second taught 😀

 

That specific company wouldn’t tell me price yet. (I emailed this weekend). 

[AfterDark.]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@Ricardo007

I guess there exist, or is possible, to have a generic PCB where you only change the clock. 
I’ve studied a few OCXO data sheets and it seems to be some sort of standard size and pin configuration. 
Also power to a clock seems pretty standard, and can be chosen when order. 
 

I would therefore assume a 1 to 3 generic PCB’s, could cover a lot of various clocks.

Also impedance is just the connector it self to determine. 
 

If this is how AfterDark is doing it, I have one idea. I hope I may explain a bit later on. 
I haven’t have time to study data sheets used by AfterDark, but you can easily do this yourself, and find out it it’s interchangeable. 
 

In the best case you can fit such a clock yourself. Order a clock without a clock. 
I think, when you’re told price and delivery time, you may have a second taught 😀

 

That specific company wouldn’t tell me price yet. (I emailed this weekend). 

 

Hi! R1200CL, 

 

This is not a simple task to make OCXO in a right manner, every measuring and testing steps is critical when we made this Giesemann Clock: 

 

We achieve economic of scale, because of purchasing large number of OCXO in a batch. So, the price of Giesemann Clock is really affordable for most customers. It is better off to purchase the final product from AfterDark. 

 

P.S. A small order will be very costly to purchase and very likely factory will not accept small order from retail customers.   

 

The state of art craftsmanship of Giesemann OCXO

The OCXO installed in the every Giesemann was calibrated and tuned by industrial equipment such as Keysight 5322A with reference to Atomic Clock & GPSDO. In order to optimally select the audio clock, we comprehensively evaluate with Symmetricom Flagship 5125A to analysis the phase noise characteristics and short-term stability (Allen dispersion) that can be determinate the OCXO grading accordingly.

Every Giesemann OCXO installed, uses a selected OCXO unit that has been calibrated for several months. In order to make the best choice of OCXO. Giesemann clock will be examined with comprehensive evaluation of phase noise characteristics and short-term stability (Allen dispersion) during detailed inspection.  The final product will final measured and fine tuned with Keysight 53220A with reference to Atomic Clock , GPSDO. 

 

Every Giesemann will provide a certificate of calibration to ensure their performance is within the specific grade such as Emperor Double Crown. 

 

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[R1200CL]

50 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

The OCXO clock use inside Giesemann is far better than the caption clock above.

It’s interesting to see that it’s measures better at 1Hz, but not at 10Hz. (If I’ve got the right clock). 
http://www.ke5fx.com/bva.htm

 

In general, is it better to look at 1Hz performance rather than 10Hz when looking at clocks phase noise numbers ?

 

About calibration

Are you calibrating you clocks yourself?

if so, can you tell us more about this process?

Do all OCXO in general need calibration?

[AfterDark.]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

It’s interesting to see that it’s measures better at 1Hz, but not at 10Hz. (If I’ve got the right clock). 
http://www.ke5fx.com/bva.htm

 

In general, is it better to look at 1Hz performance rather than 10Hz when looking at clocks phase noise numbers ?

 

About calibration

Are you calibrating you clocks yourself?

if so, can you tell us more about this process?

Do all OCXO in general need calibration?

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

1Hz and 10Hz region are both important points to define the trending of the phase noise. This is one of the factor to define the real quality of OCXO for audio application. 

 

About the calibration on OCXO , we got two partners who is leader in the OCXO industry, their team of engineers will perform and determine the real quality and performance of OCXO. 

 

The state of art craftsmanship of Giesemann OCXO

The OCXO installed in the every Giesemann was calibrated and tuned by industrial equipment such as Keysight 5322A with reference to Atomic Clock & GPSDO. In order to optimally select the audio clock, we comprehensively evaluate with Symmetricom Flagship 5125A to analysis the phase noise characteristics and short-term stability (Allen dispersion) that can be determinate the OCXO grading accordingly.

Every Giesemann OCXO installed, uses a selected OCXO unit that has been calibrated for several months. In order to make the best choice of OCXO. Giesemann clock will be examined with comprehensive evaluation of phase noise characteristics and short-term stability (Allen dispersion) during detailed inspection.  The final product will final measured and fine tuned with Keysight 53220A with reference to Atomic Clock , GPSDO. 

 

Every Giesemann will provide a certificate of calibration to ensure their performance is within the specific grade such as Emperor Double Crown. 

[GMG]

Have a question about stability

We all know that the clocks are sensitive to vibration and to temperature changes. OCXO should be stable in varying temp by design, so if the environment temp changes around the clock it should not have a significant effect. To achieve this the clock has to be able to warm up for a couple of hours and therefore it is recommended to be left powered all the time.

 

What about the effect of vibrations? How long does it take the clock to stabilize after a "vibration"? let's say you move the clock while still powered on, how long before it is stabilized again?