Afterdark Master Clock for Uptone EtherRegen

[John G]

I recently got a dCS Bartók DAC, which I'm enjoying a great deal. The company also makes an external clock (the Rossini) which, at US$ 8,500 is no small investment and I've been tempted by it, although I really don't understand the function of a clock in a digital music system. I came across this thread from a post on the Tidal forum and it make me wonder:  would the Afterdark Master Clock serve the same function as the dCS Rossini master clock?

[sahmen]

I have a few questions: 

 

--what happens when you attach a Grieseman Master Clock to an ER and forget to flip the "Clock" switch on the ER to the "EXT" position?

 

--Does any kind of "burn-in"  on the attached external clock occur even when the Switch is not in the EXT position?

 

--When you first install the clock and attach it to the ER with the BNC cable, what are the best practices to ensure that *everything* is working well, apart from flipping the ER clock switch to the EXT position?  Are any reboots required, for example, and how are hey done?

 

I am sorry if these question sound silly and "Noobie-ish". I just realized to my horror that I forgot to flip the switch when I initially installed the queen Square wave clock, and realize that the whole burn-in process must perhaps start afresh, although the system is playing okay after I finally flipped the switch to the "EXT" position (although the music seems to be sounding slightly more "sluggish" than usual, if I am not imagining it).

 

I do not mind restarting the "burn-in" process, but I want to make sure I have gotten everything right this time. I could not read the literature which came with the clock, because of the smallness of the font. If there are a set of "how to" instructions posted on line, could someone kindly point me to them?)

 

Thanks.

[PYP]

38 minutes ago, sahmen said:

When you first install the clock and attach it to the ER with the BNC cable, what are the best practices to ensure that *everything* is working well, apart from flipping the ER clock switch to the EXT position?  Are any reboots required, for example, and how are hey done?

 

I think the most important guidance is to keep the clock powered at all time so that it can stabilize.  If you lose power, as has happened to me twice (power company problem), nothing is damaged and you re-start by making sure the clock is on before powering on the etherREGEN.  My assumption would be that as long as the clock is powered and connected to the eR, the clock has been stabilizing, even if the switch on the eR was not switched.  You haven't harmed anything.  The eR simply didn't know you wanted to use an external clock (see programming below).  I have a Cybershaft clock, but the practices are the same.  

 

From the etherREGEN User Guide:  

If you are going to attach an external 10MHz reference clock to the EtherREGEN, then you must move the small switch labeled “CLOCK INT/EXT” to the ‘EXT’ position. In order for the EtherREGEN to correctly program its clock synthesizer chip to use either the Internal (Crystek XO) or External clock as reference, the CLOCK INT/EXT switch must be set BEFORE DC power is applied. Programming will not occur if the CLOCK switch is moved after DC power is applied.

The sequence to utilize an external reference clock with the EtherREGEN is:

1) Remove DC power from the EtherREGEN.
2) Set the CLOCK INT/EXT switch to the EXT position.
3) Connect a BNC clock cable from a 10MHz reference clock. 4) Power on the reference clock.
5) Apply DC power to the EtherREGEN.

[DarqueKnight]

1 hour ago, John G said:

I recently got a dCS Bartók DAC, which I'm enjoying a great deal. The company also makes an external clock (the Rossini) which, at US$ 8,500 is no small investment and I've been tempted by it, although I really don't understand the function of a clock in a digital music system. I came across this thread from a post on the Tidal forum and it make me wonder:  would the Afterdark Master Clock serve the same function as the dCS Rossini master clock?

The Rossini is a word clock, which clocks each digital sample of the devices connected to it. The AfterDark clock is an external 10 MHz reference clock, which replaces the less accurate internal clocks of the devices attached to it. The word clocks made by dCS and the 10 MHz reference clocks made by AfterDark serve different functions and are not interchangeable. To use a word clock, a device must have a "word clock" input, or be able to synch to the word clock via some other connection type. To use a 10 MHz reference clock, a device must have a 10 MHz reference clock input.

 

Having digital components synched to a single clock source reduces jitter and phase noise. You can think of a master clock as a single conductor for an entire orchestra, rather than each section of the orchestra having their own conductor.

 

I have dCS's previous generation Debussy DAC and previous generation Puccini word clock ($5,500). Digital samples from my Bryston BDP-3 digital player are clocked by the Puccini word clock via USB connection. Digital samples to the Debussy DAC are clocked by the Puccini word clock over a coaxial cable connection. The Puccini clock resulted in a lower noise floor, greater musical detail, and better stereo imaging.

 

I also use an AfterDark Emperor Double Crown 10 MHz reference clock to replace the internal clock of the EtherREGEN Ethernet switch that is between the NAS and BDP-3 digital player. Again, use of the AfterDark EDC clock resulted in a lower noise floor, greater musical detail, and better stereo imaging.

[John G]

4 minutes ago, DarqueKnight said:

The Rossini is a word clock, which clocks each digital sample of the devices connected to it. The AfterDark clock is an external 10 MHz reference clock, which replaces the less accurate internal clocks of the devices attached to it. The word clocks made by dCS and the 10 MHz reference clocks made by AfterDark serve different functions and are not interchangeable. To use a word clock, a device must have a "word clock" input, or be able to synch to the word clock via some other connection type. To use a 10 MHz reference clock, a device must have a 10 MHz reference clock input.

Thank you for this; it's very helpful.

[sahmen]

14 minutes ago, PYP said:

I think the most important guidance is to keep the clock powered at all time so that it can stabilize.  If you lose power, as has happened to me twice (power company problem), nothing is damaged and you re-start by making sure the clock is on before powering on the etherREGEN.  My assumption would be that as long as the clock is powered and connected to the eR, the clock has been stabilizing, even if the switch on the eR was not switched.  You haven't harmed anything.  The eR simply didn't know you wanted to use an external clock (see programming below).  I have a Cybershaft clock, but the practices are the same.  

 

From the etherREGEN User Guide:  

If you are going to attach an external 10MHz reference clock to the EtherREGEN, then you must move the small switch labeled “CLOCK INT/EXT” to the ‘EXT’ position. In order for the EtherREGEN to correctly program its clock synthesizer chip to use either the Internal (Crystek XO) or External clock as reference, the CLOCK INT/EXT switch must be set BEFORE DC power is applied. Programming will not occur if the CLOCK switch is moved after DC power is applied.

The sequence to utilize an external reference clock with the EtherREGEN is:

1) Remove DC power from the EtherREGEN.
2) Set the CLOCK INT/EXT switch to the EXT position.
3) Connect a BNC clock cable from a 10MHz reference clock. 4) Power on the reference clock.
5) Apply DC power to the EtherREGEN.

This is very helpful. Many thanks.

[AfterDark.]

3 hours ago, John G said:

I recently got a dCS Bartók DAC, which I'm enjoying a great deal. The company also makes an external clock (the Rossini) which, at US$ 8,500 is no small investment and I've been tempted by it, although I really don't understand the function of a clock in a digital music system. I came across this thread from a post on the Tidal forum and it make me wonder:  would the Afterdark Master Clock serve the same function as the dCS Rossini master clock?

 

Hi! John,

 

Thanks for your questions. We have one product which has same function as the dCS Rossini Master Clock:

 

The device have one 44.1Mhz, 48Mhz, and additional 10M Master Output. This is designed with one of the dCS customer. 

 

dCS Bartók DAC

The input 1 of Word Clock is 44.1Mhz and input 2 is 48Mhz. Then select the dCS to accept external clock, it will plug and play and accepting external word clock signals.

Have a nice weekend.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[John G]

17 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

We have one product which has same function as the dCS Rossini Master Clock:

 

The device have one 44.1Mhz, 48Mhz, and additional 10M Master Output. This is designed with one of the dCS customer. 

Wow, looks like you have exactly what I need. Have to give this serious consideration, and also think about how I'd find room for this box and the EtherRegen (currently in a closet outside my listening room) in my audio rack.

 

If anyone else has experience with this setup, or there's a thread here that addresses it, I'd like to hear about it.

[richard_crl032]

On 3/22/2021 at 4:32 AM, Mjw21a said:

Yes, a bit pointless without an expensive rewire of the house.

 

We've a nice, fast internet connection though everything within the house is connected by a wireless mesh with audio connected systems connected via RJ45 to those mesh devices.

 

Who knows,  we've some house renovations on the cards. Might not be too difficult to run a cable from the garage to the living room. ;)

 

Hi 21a,

 

I can assure you that in my system also with wireless mesh, the ER made an obvious improvement.

 

I have 25m of Supra cat 8 cable in my closet as it did not improvement sound quality to my ears ... ymmv as usual.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Mjw21a]

4 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Hi 21a,

 

I can assure you that in my system also with wireless mesh, the ER made an obvious improvement.

 

I have 25m of Supra cat 8 cable in my closet as it did not improvement sound quality to my ears ... ymmv as usual.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

Nonetheless,  I'm not interested in going down this path presently.  We've a home renovation planned in a few years and will put in some Cat 8 at that time. Until then there's still a few other avenues will see improvement without it. 

[Standard]

My AfterDark Giesemann EVA is now fully run in, providing accurate 10mhz input to my Audio-GD R7HE and DI-20HE, and it sounds super good. The transformation in sound reminds me of going from my Metrum Octave (SS) to AMR DP-777SE (Tube).

 

I owned the AMR DP-777SE for a long time before I upgraded to the Audio-GD R7HE, and while the latter blew the former out the water, the only thing that didn't was the expressiveness of the tube DAC, especially on timbres and nuances, as all tube DACs are known for.

 

But now, with the AfterDark 10mhz feeding my Audio-GD, I can finally goodbye to tubes forever.

[mfaoro]

Am I correct in stating that the only AD clock that uses square wave is In the Queen Square Wave?

 

I so, is that likely to change in the future? I’d like to try this out but I don’t want to use filters.

 

 

[kzs70]

Hello,

 

Is anyone using or has tried this ER and AD Clock combination with a Lumin X1?

In my seetup the the ER is reversed (B->A), feeding the Lumin X1 from the A side of the ER with on optical link.

 

I read somewhere ( I think on the Roon forum) that the effect of an external clock on the ER is not that great if is is reversed...?

[kzs70]

I just found this post from @R1200CL which I was referring to and explains why B->A is not preferred for an external clock:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/etherregen-with-an-afterdark-ocxo-clock-wow/161630/34?u=zsolt_kadas

 

But I am still qurious if there is any Lumin X1 user who has tried it, either in B->A or A->B configuration?

 

Thanks,

Zsolt

[R1200CL]

On 6/5/2021 at 12:56 AM, sahmen said:

what happens when you attach a Grieseman Master Clock to an ER and forget to flip the "Clock" switch on the ER to the "EXT" position?

 

Absolutely nothing. And if flip the switch afterwards, nothing will happen either. 
 

Pull the power plug in and out from EtherRegen. Only then will something happen. 
 

So while EtherRegen is powered on you can flip the switch in any direction, and nothing will happen, until you power of and on your EtherRegen. 
This is also the preferred way to test the effect with or without an external clock. 

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, mfaoro said:

Am I correct in stating that the only AD clock that uses square wave is In the Queen Square Wave?

Yes, (if nothing has changed lately). 
 

8 hours ago, mfaoro said:

I’d like to try this out but I don’t want to use filters.

Yes, if you’re talking about the Mini Circuits one, they will destroy the effect of a square.

 

You may consider one of AfterDark’s clocks with better phase noise numbers and sine wave. 
I predict this will be better that queen square wave. No need to use a filter. 

[mfaoro]

Thanks R1200CL. Are you another person with hifi and motorcycles as main passions?

 

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You may consider one of AfterDark’s clocks with better phase noise numbers and sine wave. 
I predict this will be better that queen square wave. No need to use a filter. 

 

So this comes from the idea that a sine wave with lower phase numbers has better SQ (in conjunction with the ER) than a square with higher phase numbers?

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, kzs70 said:

I just found this post from @R1200CL which I was referring to and explains why B->A is not preferred for an external clock:

And reason saying that is here:

And here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-and-active-launch-discussion-thread/?do=findComment&comment=977901

Where said:

The clock signatures from the B side are blocked but anything else on the A side will affect the SFP port.
 

And finally here:

“Because of this slight increase in phase noise when going from B to A, if you use a REALLY good external clock (such as a Ref10), you will only get the advantage of such a clock when connecting the B side to the streamer.”

 

Rember these things where written long time before we started experimenting with external clocks. (So please don’t start a discussion with John about this. I think he has explained very well in several posts how the EtherRegen is made). The feature was at the time, only added because it was easy to do and I think a competitor had something equal.

It may be interesting if Uptone show measurements with and without a clock attached to B side in a B>A configuration. Those that ask, should do in the clock tread in Uptone area. (Don’t expect to be granted such a  test by Uptone in near future 😀)

I can say I’m struggling to hear benefits with EtherRegen in B>A to my opticalRendu.

I rather see the opticalRendu with an external clock input.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/63082-the-opticalrendu-with-external-clock-input/?tab=comments#comment-1136928 (please vote).
 

Also something for Lumin to consider in future products ?

And it should be 50 ohm as this comply with how AfterDark clocks are natively. And standardize on 50 ohm is preferred in my opinion. SPDIF converters I know about use 50 ohm. Expensive clocks let you chose in any case, so for those it shouldn’t matter. 
The selection of good clock cables seems to be better in 50 ohm than 75 ohm. 

 

 

[R1200CL]

25 minutes ago, mfaoro said:

Are you another person with hifi and motorcycles as main passions?

I do own a blue BWR R1200CL with a trailer in same color 😃

(I can’t find the one picture I have showing both together).

 

I’m a fan of property done class D amps, like my Theta Prometheuses.

And I own several other Theta products. 

[FredA]

12 hours ago, Standard said:

My AfterDark Giesemann EVA is now fully run in, providing accurate 10mhz input to my Audio-GD R7HE and DI-20HE, and it sounds super good. The transformation in sound reminds me of going from my Metrum Octave (SS) to AMR DP-777SE (Tube).

 

I owned the AMR DP-777SE for a long time before I upgraded to the Audio-GD R7HE, and while the latter blew the former out the water, the only thing that didn't was the expressiveness of the tube DAC, especially on timbres and nuances, as all tube DACs are known for.

 

But now, with the AfterDark 10mhz feeding my Audio-GD, I can finally goodbye to tubes forever.

You are right. 

 

It makes the sound spacious and smooth like tubes would do but with additonal resolution, not less. I can't fault the sound now. I have to restrain myself to avoid listening all day long. 

 

You can rationalize it by seeing a perfect audio signal being carried on a conveyor. If the conveyor moves at a constant speed, the wave will be perfect at the end of it. Otherwise, you get what can be conceived as randomized Doppler effects. Subtle frequency shifts all over the place, blurring the signal. 

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

53 minutes ago, mfaoro said:

So this comes from the idea that a sine wave with lower phase numbers has better SQ (in conjunction with the ER) than a square with higher phase numbers?

Yes. (Doesn’t matter ER or not). 
 

Just so people understand a lower phase phase noise is like -145 and a higher one is like -125. 
 

Also you can’t measure phase noise on a square, so you have to add a square to sine converter between in order to have a correct measurement. Now that’s something to think about 😀

The quality of the external square to sine converter may matter, as well as power supply in use may also affect phase noise measurements on a square wave clock. 

 

Following Uptone advices I also think, if a proper cable is used, a square vs sine with equal phase noise  numbers, it may be better with a square. But without good equipment, you won’t know the affect the cable is adding. Nor do you know what power supplies was used if you rely an a third party measurement of a AfterDark square clock. 

[sgb]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

I can say I’m struggling to hear benefits with EtherRegen in B>A to my opticalRendu.

I rather see the opticalRendu with an external clock input.

 

My opinion is on the contrary that I hear a large benefit with my AD clock with EtherRegen in B>A to my opticalRendu. I don't care if the experts say it won't benefit to go  B>A  with EtherRegen and an external clock. I just trust my ears. And I am 70 years old and don't have superhearing any more. 🙂

But I agree that it would be nice with the opticalRendu with an external clock input.

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, sgb said:

My opinion is on the contrary that I hear a large benefit with my AD clock with EtherRegen in B>A to my opticalRendu. I don't care if the experts say it won't benefit to go  B>A  with EtherRegen and an external clock.

Thanks for sharing. Yes, it’s obvious that a device can have different impact on different system. Our hearing maybe too, so everything in individual and system depending in the end. 

[richard_crl032]

Duelund AC0.4 Silver Premium Audio Cable (Silver in Cotton / Oil impregnated) 

 

Those black dc cable from pcb to dc jack

[R1200CL]

Probably not the best cable for DC. Not available on Duelund official site. 
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/duelund-awg26-silver-wire-cotton-oil-insulated.html