Afterdark Master Clock for Uptone EtherRegen

[R1200CL]

@ambre

Didn’t you open the clock and had a look inside ?

Edit:

Reading your other posts @uptone area, have you bought a second one. Same configuration ?

[R1200CL]

7 minutes ago, ambre said:

no not open YET ....do you want to built your own clocks as competitor of Afterdark?  Or you are a real DIY guy?

I have no intention of building my own clocks. It requires highly skilled people th get this right. Even Adrian isn’t designing this clocks himself. 
 

Even though I’m educated in electronics thousand years ago, I’m definitely not what should be under the DIY umbrella. 
Which remember I have a dual set of PCB to build a headphone amp from DIY site. Never order the parts 😃

 

I hope you as a “reviewer” wouldn’t mind open the clock and share pictures. It’s interesting to se good craftsmanship. What’s stopping you from not sharing the inside of such a nice device. 

[R1200CL]

@ambre

I answer your question here instead of Uptone tread. 

I’m focused on a new clock, more suited for the future. I can foresee I need of minimum dual isolated outputs. 
 

If you read my post in the other tread, I’ve raised som question and wishes for new clock. Some summarized here. 

• Leave the AC power input out. DC only. Save money, or use money on other areas in the design. 
• Proper verification of isolation of the outputs.
• Measurements with different power supplies. 
• Measurements with various noise and weight added (he has applied both methods in present design). 
• How to do measurements from sine in a square output without comprising measurements.
• What is the limit where there isn’t need for better measurements. (Impossible question?)

Again, please give Adrian time to be in control, and be patient. This is work intensive things. He is (I don’t know for sure) running a one man business. One mistake can be bad. He needs time to do it right first time.  Also we can’t tell him how to run his business, but I guess wishes regarding new products are allowed. I think his phase noise measurements is very promising. I think or hope myself that the double crown measurements would be sufficient for most. 
 As an example, I’m talking to Chinese suppliers of tungsten blocks, as low as $5. I like to further investigate if such an item is something that may can be considered by Adrian.

By opening your clock, you could measure the size of the used ocxo and help me and others understand a possible option of adding a tungsten block. 

 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Which previous version of your other clocks can this be compared with ?

Thinking about phase noise. 
 

Outputs isolated of cause ?

 

There seems to be an option for future upgrade on top, as there is a plate that can be removed. 

[R1200CL]

6 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

The triple output of Giesemann OCXO will have two grades (Prince & Queen), the phase noise is below: 

Thanks. 
If one would like something equal to single double crown, is that just to add that clock in use ?

Or is a redesign required ?
 

[R1200CL]

22 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

so we are not plan to use external DC for this version.

Will it be easy to apply myself ?

As an example, it’s very common to do on a similar tweak on Singxer SU-1. 
 

If possible at all.
What would the minimum order number in a DC version require (like a group buy) ?

 

[R1200CL]

7 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

We shall add this new option for one like the best performance with OCXO in 3 outputs version, so it can suit your requirements. 

Sounds great. So what you have done is simply to design a new PCB that is an add on to existing design, with isolation, square wave, 3 outputs. So it can probably be added to all present designs ?

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

As you probably know, on that other brand cheap clock, there was reported huge success in better SQ by adding a tungsten weight.

Can I easily do a similar tweak myself on your clock.

At the moment I’m offered 5X5X1 cm, which is just below half kilo to approximately $35 for each cube. 

[R1200CL]

It’s my understanding the all clocks are sine. 
Square wave is done afterwards. 
All measurements is done by sine. And before isolation, which may affect measurements slightly. 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Would you (or anyone else) happen to know price for this clock ?

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf

 

It seems to be one of the best available in ULN version. 

[R1200CL]

10 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

We certainly can arrange a group buy for member of audiophilestyle.com, we are thinking of two models at the moments. 

Would you consider a collaboration with John Swenson’ company ?

Meaning you could design a new clock board with DC in as on option.

(You may even discuss with Alex to supply you LPS 1.2 boards only and put inside your case, not that I think it’s a good idea).

Consider one output vs 2 or 3 outputs, if this complicate the design, lower the numbers, as well raise the price? Isolated outputs may be hard to design, and probably affect phase noise negativity. (I and most I think would prefer 2 or 3 isolated square wave outputs). 
 

Is it realistic to build a DC powered clock with a Morion 336M as an example (or equal numbers in a data sheet) not exceeding HKS 5000 ?

What would you consider as an acceptable number of people in a group buy ?

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

https://www.nelfc.com/ocxo/
Links to datasets next to each model. 

The numbers on Extraordinarily Low Phase Noise looks also here very good. 
I have no idea of cost for one module. 
 

 

 

Is HCMOS/TTL equal to square wave ?

 

Maybe some answers here. 
https://blog.bliley.com/selecting-the-best-signal-type-for-your

 

Sine is best it seems. 

[R1200CL]

14 hours ago, Ponkbutler said:

I am no expert whatsoever,  but that does not seem to be the case. Please see here, for example:

Sinewave outputs are the ‘natural’ output of a crystal oscillator circuit and usually they represent the maximum level of spectral purity that one can expect from an oscillator. By definition a pure sine wave has only a single or fundamental frequency – and with, in the ideal case, no harmonics present. 
 

There is no ‘standard’ output level associated with sinewave outputs as there is in the case of the other output types, with the wave form of a sine input defined (for a given frequency) by the amplitude alone, usually expressed as output power in dBm.

 

Sinewave outputs are meant to drive 50 ohm impedance loads and the PC trace should also be designed to a 50 ohm impedance. Most logic output sources are derived form a sine or clipped sine wave source which degrades the phase noise performance - a sine-wave output is the ideal for demanding low phase noise applications.

 

Read it here. 
https://www.vectron.com/products/literature_library/Signal_Types_and_Terminations.pdf
 

It’s interesting to notice that they advice 50ohm. 

[R1200CL]

Crazy good numbers. I’m afraid so is the price 😀

https://www.nelfc.com/email/NEL01201.html

 

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

3-Uptone says on their site that there is no need to add an external clock. He changed his mind with your AfterDark external clock?

He, I assume you mean Alex C., hasn’t changed his mind. He has given us phase noise numbers on his Crystek CCHD-575 and said that the Chinese $92 seems to have better phase noise numbers. (As a new clock). 
 

There isn’t any need. But several have found out an external clock will help. This may depend on your system, or even your perception of SQ.

 

If your EtherRegen is a standard 75 ohm, you want a 75 ohm cable and clock. 
 

I can foresee upcoming products designed by John S for Sonore and Uptone will have the option of an external clock. 
Unless there is good reason to standardize on 50 ohm, I expect 75 ohm to be the standard.

 

https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/why-fifty-ohms

Reading the above indicates 50 ohm may be what we want. But I’m not sure it matters enough. 

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/history-of-50-ohms.htm

 

Maybe we even want 30 ohm 😀

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/50-ohm-vs-75-ohm-i-still-don_t-get-it/

 

[R1200CL]

@Ricardo007

I guess there exist, or is possible, to have a generic PCB where you only change the clock. 
I’ve studied a few OCXO data sheets and it seems to be some sort of standard size and pin configuration. 
Also power to a clock seems pretty standard, and can be chosen when order. 
 

I would therefore assume a 1 to 3 generic PCB’s, could cover a lot of various clocks.

Also impedance is just the connector it self to determine. 
 

If this is how AfterDark is doing it, I have one idea. I hope I may explain a bit later on. 
I haven’t have time to study data sheets used by AfterDark, but you can easily do this yourself, and find out if it’s interchangeable. 
 

In the best case you can fit such a clock yourself. Order a clock without a clock. 
I think, when you’re told price and delivery time, you may have a second taught 😀

 

That specific company wouldn’t tell me price yet. (I emailed this weekend). 

[R1200CL]

50 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

The OCXO clock use inside Giesemann is far better than the caption clock above.

It’s interesting to see that it’s measures better at 1Hz, but not at 10Hz. (If I’ve got the right clock). 
http://www.ke5fx.com/bva.htm

 

In general, is it better to look at 1Hz performance rather than 10Hz when looking at clocks phase noise numbers ?

 

About calibration

Are you calibrating you clocks yourself?

if so, can you tell us more about this process?

Do all OCXO in general need calibration?

[R1200CL]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:23 AM, AfterDark. said:

Every Giesemann OCXO installed, uses a selected OCXO unit that has been calibrated for several months. In order to make the best choice of OCXO.

Is it possible to explain this calibration process ?

There is so much I don’t know about OCXO. 
 

Is your design a generic one, only changing the clock itself ?

 

Do you see a possible upgrade program, where we in field can switch out parts inside in order to upgrade to a better clock ?

[R1200CL]

39 minutes ago, Mjw21a said:

The way it has read to me is that it's the same clock throughout the range,  and how well they measure determines their grade. Prince, Queen, King, Emperor etc. The same approach Cybershaft uses, and the same process as Intel and AMD use with their CPU range. As for exactly how it's calibrated, I can't see then sharing trade secrets. It wouldn't be a smart move.

It can’t be the same clock. It doesn’t make sense. 
 

I can’t understand how a calibration should be a trade secret. Please explain. 

[R1200CL]

One meter is my understanding. 

 

[R1200CL]

I like to know if anyone has had success by powering the AfterDark Clock with Uptone LPS-1.2 or even dual set of LPS-1 ? 
 

It’s my expectation that with a fully pre-warmed clock, this should work just fine.

[R1200CL]

12 minutes ago, Stevem324 said:

If I decide to order an aftermarket 75 ohm cable, does anyone know if cable length matters? 

Most of us use 30 cm

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Video-Belden-Neutrik-NBNC75TU11X-Orange/dp/B07BZWY57M/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JJ91JZSD3KT5S0W00H71

 

There is more information in the EtherRegen clock tread. 

 

I expect the cable supplied with AfterDark clock will serve you well enough. You may ask him for a shorter length than the standard 1 meter that’s ships with that specific offer. 

[R1200CL]

I noticed that even several of you here at AS has bought a AfterDark clock, no one has yet posted in the tread listening impressions. 
 

Not even @ambre. 
 

This is quite unusual I would say. At least compared to how we’re used to people posting about every new John S product released the last 4 years. 
As well as the cheap AliExpress clock. 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, MasterWarzombie said:

A little different from what is indicated on the site.

The numbers is better. (You clock) 😀

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

It seems to me you have raised the price all over with 3 to 400 KH$  Correct. ?