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Singxer SDA-6


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13 hours ago, SwissBear said:

 

The goal of the SU-2 is to convert an USB flow, which is asynchronous, into SPDIF or I2S, both of which are synchronous music flows, which embark music data together with a clock signal. So connecting a high precision clock to the SU-2 will allow the output flow to be clocked by this high precision clock.

In case your DAC follows the clock signal included in the SPDIF or I2S flow, you will benefit from this high precision clock signal.

This is the case of the SDA-6 which is mentioned here.

 

My limited understanding on the subject of clocks for digital audio is that you don't need a high precision clock. 

 

Some explanations are provided here in response to the measurements you also posted on ASR: 

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/singxer-sda-6-influence-of-a-10-mhz-clock.19922/

 

There are also some who claim that the precision of the clock is not the issue, but all the RF going on inside the DAC (especially when inputting high bandwidth signals as USB, I2S, SPDIF...).

 

You can understand there could be some skepticism about all this, (and the cost of a REF-10 at 4000€ is significant).  This begs one question: have others done this aside from you or are you just relating your own "in house" experimentation ? Did anyone actually listen to your setup (SDA6 with and without the REF-10) aside from you ?

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Thanks for all this, but you did not answer my question (and I did not say this was uninteresting!).

 

BTW I also think timing is key, the question is how to achieve it...and how to make sure percieved changes are consistent, shared by others, and isolated (cannot be attributed to other factors). 

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1 hour ago, R1200CL said:


So in other words, the theory is that a converter like the SU-2 will benefit from a good clock ?

Clocks matters and play a role in USB to SPDIF conversion ?

 

 

No one really has the answer to that last question! In theory a clock with 1ps precision is more than enough. In practice... 

 

USB transmits the data and provides information on the sample rate. The The data goes into a buffer at the reciever end, and it is during the conversion to spdif that the clock signal is generated. 

 

Whether a high precision clock will really translate into lower jitter during  the USB/Spdif converter is debateable. 

 

There is not much point in going into technical debates as no one here (including myself) is sufficiently competent to know what is really going on. If you ask DAC manufacturers you will also get different points of view. 

 

You can try and trust your years, as SwissBear seems to have done. 

 

My personal experience is that noise reduction in the usb/spdif converter, without any change in clocks, has a very significant impact on timing accuracy, as the clocking seems adversly affected by RF. But noise (RF) reduction in a converter is not something we can "improve" ourselves by tweaking, or at least not significantly. 

 

My 2 cents. Best to try for yourself :) 

 

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3 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

But why would you use something like SU-2 with SDA-6?

 

I never understood such setups. To me it is analogous to this:

- You buy a Ferrari, but you want another engine on it, so you buy a Lamborghini and connect to the two with a towing rope. And then tow the Ferrari around with the Lamborghini. And then the combination is somehow better than the Ferrari alone...

 

 

Yes, if you have a better clock at the source (USB to S/PDIF converter), then the PLL at receiver side has better chances or recovering a clean clock from the S/PDIF signal. But where do you need such converter these days where it would matter? Most of the time you can go with straight USB and skip the S/PDIF part. Of course someone may have an old DAC that doesn't have USB input or such.

 

 

You'll still need a clock at some point... 

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Just now, Miska said:

 

Good oscillator either inside the USB-to-S/PDIF converter (if you really need to use such).

 

Or preferably inside the DAC, sitting right next to the actual D/A conversion stage. This is the normal case these days.

 

 

Yes. You avoid jitter in the transmission. But you can also get maximum noise injection from USB into the DAC. Which is why some people like Toslink, for example. There's no ideal situation... 

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1 hour ago, SwissBear said:

 

Hi Alex,

 

Thanks for sharing your investigations and suppositions.

What I always find more interesting than suppositions, is measurements and listening experience.

 

In this post: 

I shared measurements made  by l7audiolab which clearly show that even a middle class 10 MHz clock (Gustard C-18) had a positive effect on the measurement of jitter at the output of a DAC which was driven by a SU-2.

 

I have had an SU-2 in my setup for some time now, driven by a Mutec REF-10, and I can assure you that this 10 MHz clock leads to better results than the oscillators of the SU-2 alone.

 

Both measurements and listening experience show that the implementation made by Singxer of the 10 MHz clock input is performing well, whatever clever suppositions tend to infer.

 

Just y 2c.

 

A lab measurement of a single tone is one thing, but we all know it does not help explain everything, otherwise there would be absolutely no need for Audiophile forums. I think you already know that well.

 

If you are eager to get technical explanations to back up the improvements that you are hearing (as you seem to suggest on the "French forum"), I doubt you will find an engineer who will support the idea that using an external clock is going to systematically and substantially improve sound quality. 

 

The fact that some vendors offer the option is not in any way meaningful.

 

So where does that leave you ? Hoping others will try it out (and spend 4000$ on a Mutec REF-10) to confirm what you hear ? Or doing a balancing act picking and choosing which technical "expert" best supports your measurements/impressions ?

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29 minutes ago, SwissBear said:

 

Not sure what your intention is with this post. I personally have no agenda. I am sharing what I hear and I do not need any backup or explanation. And I am certainly not trying to convince anybody to buy an expensive clock if this is not what they are willing to.

 

I observe that there are a lot of places in this forum where people explain their enjoyment of adding high precision clocks to their setups and especially in connexion with the EtherRegen. I have not observed that you tried to dissuade them to make such kind of stupid decisions if this is you mission. You might want to extend your croisade to these place too :-)

 

My intention was to clarify yours. I happen to read the "french forum" as well, and you seem to express views there that are not completely consistent with what you say here. I'm sorry to have pointed that out.

 

As far as my agenda is concerned - I'll be perfectly honest with you:

- I was interested to understand what the hype was about Diretta on the "french forum", and read with interest PDA0's comments, which I reposted here as I think it useful for people to have various points of view

- I was disappointed by the reaction, and curious to see what the "french mob" here in your thread had to say.

 

If people want to share their excitement about something, that is great, but lets try to do it with honesty and not pick our facts or our experts depending on what you want to hear them say.

 

Take care.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, SwissBear said:

 

I already have a guardian angel and I do not need a second one. Thanks for trying to use your skills in French to guarantee the alignment of my positions of both fora. I am not sure there is a need for that !

 

 

I have a difficulty when someone has no experience and not ever listened to a product or technology and is busy trying to discourage the other ones to make their own experience with this product or technology.

 

When you argued against Diretta saying that this product was just a way to correct for unreliable implementations of USB at DACs ()your own word are "Fix the DAC", just because one user, pda0, had expressed the idea that he didn't need it, this was very disrespectful of the opinion of the majority of Diretta users who adopted this technology and are very happy of it. 

 

When you try to convince people that using a good external clock does not affect listening experience, this is very disrespectful of the opinion of people who are expressing the improvements they had in implementing this technology in their system. Including people that have done it with their EtherRegen as I mentioned before.

 

I also have a feeling of disrespect reading the words "french mob". 

 

This forum is a place of free expression. It does not need a political police. Everybody is autonomous enough to form his or her own judgement.

 

Just my 2 c

 

 

I did not appreciate the comments that were made towards me in that thread. I don't appreciate you twisting my words here either and mis-representing what I said.  And "pour info", I am French.

 

In case you did not understand from my previous post, I was simply trying to "gage" here who I was dealing with. I have the answer ! I am sure you do too. I can assure you I won't interfere in your threads again.

 

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