Boulez / Vienna Mahler 6 Esoteric SACD

[Darryl R]

Has anyone heard it yet?

 

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EDIT: will post next time in the Analysis Forum.

[firedog]

I have the CD, it's very good - but not as good as the Bernstein with the Vienna from about 8 years earlier. Since it's a 16/44.1 recording, I don't know if I'd spend the money on it just to get it on an SACD. Upsample the CD to DSD and you will get about the same thing, unless you somehow think they could have done something amazing with the remastering.

I doubt it. It would be more interesting as an SACD if the original was tape and they had made an SACD from the original tape.

[sphinxsix]

Of all the labels that issue SACDs I highly trust Analogue Productions which IMO issue the best sounding remasters on the market on the regular basis. OTOH my highest distrust vote goes to Esoteric which does things like the one described in the post above, AFAIK they rarely have access to the original master tapes and in addition they happen to quite heavily equalize recordings in their remastering process (I've encountered such situation on more than a couple of occasions) often making them sound worse than redbook versions. 

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

I have the CD, it's very good - but not as good as the Bernstein with the Vienna from about 8 years earlier.

The Bernstein/Vienna is a mediocre recording, at best, but the overwhelming performance makes that fact fairly irrelevant. 

[Darryl R]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

The Bernstein/Vienna is a mediocre recording, at best, but the overwhelming performance makes that fact fairly irrelevant. 

 

Funny, I was just asking myself why Esoteric couldn't have chosen the Bernstein.  Indeed I saw a post on HRAudio confirming from the notes that the Boulez is a 16/44 upsample.  I've generally found the Esoterics preferable to the DG RBCDs (a recent case in point being the Böhm/VPO Beethoven 6/Schubert 5).

 

I have several of the APO SACDs in my collection, replacing many of the early RCA LS SACD releases.  But I also have a number of Esoterics I like too.  For DG, most of the time, but not always, they are superseded by Emil Berliner remasters of the original.  Hopefully EBS will  do the Bernstein soon.

 

For those interested, here is a copy of the EBS tonemeister's comments about this release, posted on HRAudio:

 

Quote

Rainer Maillard of Emil Berliner Studios was the Tonmeister on this recording, so I emailed him asking him about how it was recorded. His reply: "The recording was done in 4-track on a Nagra-D (24 bit). But I only edited a 16-bit version for CD at the time using Sony DAE 3000. If there would be a real remastering by Esoteric, they would have to use the original 4-track tapes and have reedited and remixed the work (they would need the score with the edit marks too)." He also said this about DG's 4D system: "The bit length of the converter and the recording medium weren't the same for a few years. In the beginning we used 19, 21 and later 23 bit ADC in combination with noise shaping technology and the Sony PCM 1630 [16 bit] recording system....We recorded 24 bit in multitrack much earlier than in 2-track, because we modified our Sony 3324 from 24 track/16 bit to 16 track/24 bit first....Please be aware that converting, recording, editing, mixing, mastering and archiving in 24bit all have their own specific developments. The whole 24 bit chain was not ready at one moment. It took some years (and a lot of money) to get everything together."

 

[sphinxsix]

How about Ivan Fischer/BFO version - IMO a very good performance and great SQ.?

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

How about Ivan Fischer/BFO version - IMO a very good performance and great SQ.?

Yes but, in multichannel, I prefer the performances by Abbado (Lucerne) and Zander (Telarc).

2 hours ago, Darryl R said:

Funny, I was just asking myself why Esoteric couldn't have chosen the Bernstein. 

Dunno but I don't bother much with remasterings, except in very rare cases.

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Yes but, in multichannel, I prefer the performances by Abbado (Lucerne) and Zander (Telarc).

 

I know only Abbado/Berliner, I prefer Fischer to Zander.

BTW the longer I'm interested in classical the more I'm ready to accept far from perfect SQ provided the performance is outstanding.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

49 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

I know only Abbado/Berliner, I prefer Fischer to Zander.

BTW the longer I'm interested in classical the more I'm ready to accept far from perfect SQ provided the performance is outstanding.

Oh, I certainly agree.  As for Abbado/Berliner, I have not listened to it in years.  Mebbe this weekend.

[Darryl R]

4 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

How about Ivan Fischer/BFO version - IMO a very good performance and great SQ.?

 

Yes, got it and like it.  For hi-res, also fond of the Levine/Boston.

 

 

 

I picked up this one, but haven't heard it yet:

 

 

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 6 "Tragic" - Paavo Järvi, NHK Symphony Orchestra | Songs, Reviews, Credits | AllMusic

[Darryl R]

3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Dunno but I don't bother much with remasterings, except in very rare cases.

 

I keep a close eye on them.  Rainer Maillard, whose quote I posted earlier, has done some excellent hi-res work on a number of Karajan/BPO classics in the past few years.  There have also been some very successful, second-time DSD remasterings of great Szell/Cleveland recordings, just to name a few of the orchestral giants.  All of the above coming from retail sources in Japan, a mix of DSD and PCM.

[firedog]

33 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

Yes, got it and like it.  For hi-res, also fond of the Levine/Boston.

 

 

 

I picked up this one, but haven't heard it yet:

 

 

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 6 "Tragic" - Paavo Järvi, NHK Symphony Orchestra | Songs, Reviews, Credits | AllMusic

I heard Jarvi and the NHK perform it a few years ago. Was very good. Hope the record is, too.

[sphinxsix]

On 1/16/2021 at 5:02 PM, Kal Rubinson said:

The Bernstein/Vienna is a mediocre recording, at best, but the overwhelming performance makes that fact fairly irrelevant. 

 

It's very good indeed. Are any other of his performances of Mahler S-es with Vienna that good.? (and BTW do they also sound that bad?)

 

[Darryl R]

I didn't remember the SQ of the LB/VPO M6 being that bad, but since it had been several years since I heard it, I gave it another listen.  I'm finding it one of the better RBCDs I've heard in a while.  Maybe it's that the MSB DAC does such a good job with RB.

[firedog]

23 hours ago, Darryl R said:

 

Yes, got it and like it.  For hi-res, also fond of the Levine/Boston.

 

 

 

I picked up this one, but haven't heard it yet:

 

 

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 6 "Tragic" - Paavo Järvi, NHK Symphony Orchestra | Songs, Reviews, Credits | AllMusic

Listened to the Jarvi on Qobuz. Very good. A driving, intense performance, lots of energy when it's called for. That fits this music. Glad you reminded me of it- Qobuz didn't have it when it first came out, and I was disappointed not to find it back then. 

[sphinxsix]

3 hours ago, Darryl R said:

I didn't remember the SQ of the LB/VPO M6 being that bad, but since it had been several years since I heard it, I gave it another listen.  I'm finding it one of the better RBCDs I've heard in a while.  Maybe it's that the MSB DAC does such a good job with RB.

 

Well, I shouldn't compare an MSB DAC with my IEMs plugged directly into laptop, MP3 stream being the source but my phones definitely suggested the sound is far from being smooth - what I heard was bright and shrill, even to the point of being unpleasant. A very good performance though (definitely will get the CD) 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

12 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

Well, I shouldn't compare an MSB DAC with my IEMs plugged directly into laptop, MP3 stream being the source but my phones definitely suggested the sound is far from being smooth - what I heard was bright and shrill, even to the point of being unpleasant

I'd use the word "glaring" to describe it. Still, powerful, dynamic and gut-wrenching.

[firedog]

14 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I'd use the word "glaring" to describe it. Still, powerful, dynamic and gut-wrenching.

 

 

27 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

Well, I shouldn't compare an MSB DAC with my IEMs plugged directly into laptop, MP3 stream being the source but my phones definitely suggested the sound is far from being smooth - what I heard was bright and shrill, even to the point of being unpleasant. A very good performance though (definitely will get the CD) 

 

In the end, it's about which version connects you to the music and gets the message of the music across. For me the Bernstein VPO does it best. 

And BTW, I don't think the SQ is that bad. Not the best, but not that terrible.

[sphinxsix]

6 minutes ago, firedog said:

In the end, it's about which version connects you to the music and gets the message of the music across.

 

Agree in 100%!

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I'd use the word "glaring" to describe it.

 

As a non native English speaker I never quite liked this term (I've always mostly associated the word with visual sensations) and never used it. 

From Stereophile 'Glossary':

'glare - An unpleasant quality of hardness or brightness, due to excessive low- or mid-treble energy.'

I think it corresponds with my impressions.

 

[sphinxsix]

OT: Bernstein/Vienna Mahler 5th is also very interesting.. wow..

[Darryl R]

On 1/18/2021 at 6:06 AM, sphinxsix said:

OT: Bernstein/Vienna Mahler 5th is also very interesting.. wow..

 

Had a chance to hear the new one?

 

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