Jump to content
IGNORED

Article: At Long Last! Listen To Your (Physical) SACDs Through an Outboard DAC


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, jxo said:

Mogulman:  can you elaborate on what was needed to get I2S from the breakout box to, and working with, your DAC90?

Hello George,

Thank you very much for your review of the Pontus II DAC and the discovery of the HDMI-I2S box. I bought the Pontus as well as the box, connected the box to my XA5400 Sony player in HDMI o/p mode and to the Pontus. Everything worked flawlessly ! I have multiple high-end DACs and transports and this is by far the highest level of sound quality I have in my system (even slightly more open than DSD files from a HAP-Z1ES server to the Pontus over USB..!).  Thank you again.. Hugo 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Glad it worked for you. This setup seems pretty bullet-proof. I would like to try this with a lot of different Blu-ray/SACD players, but that’s fairly impractical. I tried it with three, two Sony’s; one that I had on-hand and a friend’s as well as my Oppo 205, and a buddy’s Oppo 105. Somewhat disturbingly, all the players sounded different streaming SACD to the Pontus through the I2S box, with the transport in the Oppo UDP-205 sounding far superior to the Oppo 105 or either of the two Sony units I tried. While all sounded better than the Oppo 205 operating in the stand-alone mode (playing SACDs through it’s on-board ESS SabreDAC pro), none of the other players could hold a candle to the UDP-205 as an SACD transport playing an SACD through the Denefrips Pontus via I2S. The other players, used as transports, all “smeared” the sound and obscured detail compared to the 205. Makes me wonder if there aren’t other Blu-ray players (which support SACD playback) out there which would sound even better than the Oppo UDP-205. But without a direct comparison, there is simply no way to know.

Anyway, I’m pretty stoked about the level of playback quality I’m getting from my more than 300 SACD discs with the current set-up. My results are so master-tape-like, that I can’t imagine how that could be improved, but it really wouldn’t surprise me to find out that even my current level of quality playback could be bettered! That seems to always be the case, doesn’t it?

George,

I also have a very large collection of SACDs and over 3000 CDs. I tried the Sony's flagship Blu-ray player (UBP-X1100ES) - which again worked flawlessly- , but the sound was less detailed and open compared to the XA5400 (last flagship SACD player from Sony). The build of the CD mechanism is completely different with the XA5400 being solid and more elaborate that the UBP's. Hence, indeed the quality of the transport plays a huge role in the ultimate sound quality through this arrangement of HDMI-i2s into Denafrips Pontus. I can also imagine that stepping up to the Venus II or the Terminator Plus will enhance the quality even more...but we will be chasing the law of diminishing returns. 

Interesting is that I have found many well produced current CDs will be far superior than middle-of-the-road SACDs (especially early ones, circa mid-2000s). And that different is possibly far more noticeable than the increments provided by better DACs. Once again, thanks for your contribution!

Link to comment
28 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Amen to that, brother. I have always maintained that the care taken in production is, with all else being equal, more important than format; high-rez or not. Case in point: I have two copies of Prokofiev’s “Lt. Kiji Suite” with  Fritz Reiner and the Chicago symphony, recorded in the mid-1950’s by RCA Victor. One is a Redbook “XRCD” from JVC, while the other is a BMG release of the same material on hybrid SACD (part of BMG’s “Living Stereo” SACD series that they released in the mid-2000s). The XRCD sounds so much better than either the Redbook layer or the SACD layer of the BMG release that it’s difficult to reconcile what one is hearing with the knowledge that they are exactly the same performance!

Now, of course, the XRCD retailed for around $40, and the BMG series for around $8 per title, but the BMG was SACD fer crissake! SACD is supposed to be high-resolution and much better than Redbook CD!
This is not the only example of a CD of a work that sounds better than either it’s SACD, DVD-A, Blu-Ray Audio or MQA stream of a particular work, but it is the one that always comes to my mind when the subject comes up. The same is true, sometimes when it comes to LP vs digital.

I have the Classics Records remastering of Stravinsky’s “Firebird”. The LP was mastered at 45 RPM, single-sided on 200 gram vinyl by Wilma Cozert Fine (the original Mercury Records mastering engineer, and the wife of the late C. Robert Fine, Mercury “Living Presence” chief recording engineer and head of Mercury’s classical division). In fact it was the last thing Wilma Cozert Fine did before she, herself, passed away. I also have the same performance on both CD (also mastered by Ms Fine) and SACD (don’t know who mastered the SACD release). Both the CD and the SACD sound very mediocre, but the LP is one of the best sounding commercial recording releases that this audiophile has ever heard! Dynamic, with thunderous bass, and silken highs; incredible sound stage and image specificity, this LP makes the digital versions sound like acoustic 78s by comparison! (OK, you caught me, I’m exaggerating, but you get the picture!). 
All of this proves to me that the production process and the care taken (or not taken) is more important, ultimately, than the release format. Sure, High-res digital, whether LPCM, or SACD (DSD) (have the potential to be) better than Redbook CD, or analog. But unless best practices are followed from microphone to final product, the actual format can be irrelevant.

I work for a Japanese company and have had the opportunity (and continue) to travel to Japan many times. As you know Japan adores physical media and have excelled in production workflows for video and music. I have acquired hundreds of these Japanese printed discs, 

The label Venus (Hyper Magnum Sound) - primarily CDs, SACDs and now LPs - is an example of superb mastering techniques and manufacturing of the media (SACD, SHM-SACD, etc) . Now these discs are available in the US, of course at $30+ .... but the capture, editing mastering is insanely beautiful - even if the original material was recorded in studios are outside Japan. Right now I am revisiting all of these discs - exclusively Jazz - on my new set up - and it is really shocking to hear layers of details that (as far as I can rely on my memory) were not there the first time around.   Cheers....

Link to comment
7 minutes ago, Daveyu said:

I purchased the Chinese box, I have a Pontus and old Sony bdp-4100, I could not get it to work with SACDs and

I have set DSD over hdmi in the Audio settings

 

I have also read that someone could not get their Perfectwave SACD transport to work with the Pontus

 

I connected the PWT to Pontus over HDMI-i2s with no issue: set the 1X2X4X combination to 010. It is the same combination for XA5400/UBP-1100ES -> Chinese Box (i2s) -> to Pontus.

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, Daveyu said:

Not sure its the player as when I connect it to my AV amp and play a SACD it says DSD playing, think it must be the box, there are so many on eBay now

Can you say which was the one you actually purchased or who the seller was ?

Do you know what setting IS2 setting (xxx) you have on the Pontus

I set my Pontus to    010

Link to comment
On 2/6/2021 at 7:53 PM, gmgraves said:

It does . It outputs from I2S from SPDIF, both optical (Toslink) and coaxial, and it outputs also from HDMI and pure I2S over what seems to be a Molex-type I2S connector. Since my understanding is that the Denafrips Pontus only accepts I2S over HDMI, I am unable to test the efficacy of I2S over the SPDIF interconnects.

I tried SPDIF (coax and optical) into the Pontus DAC from the Chinese Box and it work perfectly. I did not noticed any difference vs connecting with HDMI-I2S. The SQ of the DSD appears identical over the three connections. Hence, I think the box is truly sending the DSD64 over the three types of interfaces to the Pontus. The Pontus manual says that DSD64 is available over all inputs.

Link to comment
5 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Good to know. I didn’t try it because from what I gathered from an Internet article I read, it wasn’t supposed to work. BTW, did you notice any difference between the performance of optical vs coax? This clears up a connection dilemma that I have now that I’ve employed the new Denafrips Hermes DTD box into the system (it wants HDMI too!). Thanks for the clarification and the correction. Much appreciated!

It was not a thorough investigation, but I tried a number of CDs and SCADs and kept switching between the three connection types. I could not detect any difference listening with speakers. I did not tried listening with headphones (our of the Pontus though an external headphone amp) to do a closer examination.

Link to comment
6 hours ago, gmgraves said:

After your last post, I tried both optical and coax connections from the I2S “box“. I could get my Pontus to recognize neither one of them. It simply did not work. I’m beginning to wonder if there aren’t differences between these boxes bought through different vendors (???!!!).

It seems like this is likely the case.  Just to provide more details : I am connecting the Sony's XA5400 HDMI o/p to the box. The XA5400 explicitly indicates the selection of HDMI as an o/p (disabling its SPIDF and Toslink o/p) and further selection between multi-channel or stereo over HDMI. Then the box outputs HDMI-IIS, SPIDF and Toslink to the Pontus - all of them working correctly.  I only tried an UBP-X1100ES into the box over HDMI, with the o/p of the box's IIS to the Pontus and it worked. I will try sometime, in the next couple of days, the SPIDF and Toslink of the box into the Pontus and will report to this forum. Cheers...

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Wheat King said:

I've followed this thread with great interest.

 

I have an Esoteric DV-50S which has an HDMI output and a Gustard x20 Pro DAC which accepts I2S input but I can't seem to find any information confirming if the DV-50S does pass DSD through the HDMI port?

 

Can anyone confirm if Esoteric does pass DSD through their HDMI output?

 

Cheers, 

Japanese CD/SACD player products that adopted HDMI for connection to receivers are transmitting DSD over the HDMI connector. The Sony's XA5400 player has that same feature as the Esoteric device and the o/p can be switched between multichannel or stereo. I have not found the standard for mapping of the DSD streams over the wires of HDMI. But it seems it is standardized among Japanese manufacturers. Then, by using the Chinese box (which is at the center of these postings) one can convert this DSD over HDMI to DSD over HDMI-IIS. As said in earlier posts, the HDMI-IIS can have several variants (not standardized) hence the DAC needs to have a way to reconfigure its input streams (over the HDMI-IIS connector) to match the incoming bitstreams. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, jxo said:

All this work is much appreciated.   I am still unclear whether one MUST use an I2S (IIS) capable DAC in order to utilize the ChiFi converter box to get the best SACD playback SQ.   @hgaggioni reported that he was able to send DSD signals to his Pontus over coax, optical and HDMI/I2s.   Is DSD over coax and optical still using an I2S protocol necessitating the use of an I2S DAC?   If that is non-sensical, apologies.  The only necessary I2S pieces of this data flow maybe the output from the player over hdmi and the input of the converter box and the hdmi output of the converter box.   If so, this box would work similar to the DBOB with the additional digital output option of HDMI (I2S?).   DBOB site says: 

"External DAC must accept DSD via the DoP protocol [DSD over PCM] through S/PDIF Coax (preferable) or Toslink inputs."  I.E., I2S DACs are not necessary.

 

Is the converter box sending DSD via different protocols depending on the output option used?  DoP via coax and optical and DSD via another protocol (some references out there to "raw" DSD), I2S or otherwise, on the HDMI output?  If they are indeed different, is one better or preferred?   As GeerFab "prefers" coax?

I just want to know which DACs to start putting on the short list to purchase-- in addition to the Pontus.   If I2S is strictly needed, the list gets very short.

Hello Jim,

I guess we are all guessing the signal formats since we do not have detail documentation on the ChiFi box. 

If you read the Pontus II user manual, it indicates that DSD 2.8284MHz (i.e., DSD64 or 1X) is accepted in all inputs :

Supported Format (DSD) 2.8224MHz(DSD1X) All Input

                                          5.6448MHz(DSD2X), 11.288MHz(DSD4X) USB & I2S Only

The output from my Sony XA5400 is DSD muxed into the HDMI format. The conversion box simply extracts the DSD (raw data) from the HDMI mix and converts it into IIS format over different wiring - but still inside the HDMI physical interface. I have no idea if the box does DoP for output over SPDIF or Toslink. I suspect no. This is because the Pontus still uses DSD raw for higher speeds (2X, 4X) over HDMI-IIS and USB and it does not mention the use of DoP . If the box were using DoP for SPDIF/Toslink and DSD raw for IIS I would not be able to listen to SPDIF/Toslink outputs, since I think Pontus does not support DoP. 

I assume, therefore, that the box is sending DSD raw over all outputs (IIS, SPDIF and Toslink). When listening to the 3 outputs the sound is very close (not careful listening). The issue is then that you may have SPDIF/Toslink transmitted DSD from the box but still cannot be played from a DAC that uses DoP in their SPDIF/Toslink inputs.

Hence, the decision is not for a DAC that supports (or not IIS) but for a DAC that supports DSD raw across all types of interfaces (such as the Denafrips DACs for example).

I apologize if I am clouding the topic even more...:(

Hugo  

Link to comment
  • 1 year later...

I have been using a Sony  SCD-XA5400ES with the Chinese Box into a Terminator II (and previously a Pontus II) and the sound quality of CDs and SACDs is just amazing (everybody knows all the good adjectives!). However, I recently acquired a Denafrips Avatar with I2S O/Ps and synchronizing the clock with the Terminator II.... only playing back CDs though. Very interesting sound , different from the SCD-XA5400 and possibly more expansive and accurate... still comprehending/quantifying what I am hearing.   Conclusion...the I2S interface is the way to go always.  

Link to comment
  • 4 months later...

Hello Paul,

 

Please read the intructions of the Pontus DAC : https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-pontus-r2r-dac

 

The ChiFi box comes (if my memory serves me well) with 1x 2x 4x  = 1 0 0 ... to match the PS Audio DAC (connected via i2s).

Just  try it and keep changing configurations (000 - 111) until it sounds correct. Be aware that you will find possibly 2 combinations that will sound correct but the channels are reversed (the left channel is in the right speaker and the right channel is on the left speaker) then .. keep changing. 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...