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barrows

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6 hours ago, Confused said:

In the text per the link above there is this statement "The Ground Control contains a mixture of materials that converts high frequency energy into heat."

Yes, that is very possible.  there are many materials that can convert RF energy, for example, into heat, like ferrites and some crystalline compounds.  They do this by the following mechanism:

The material, say it is a crystal, has piezoelectric properties, and when an RF field passes through it, some of the RF energy is dispersed, or damped, by its coupling with the crystalline structure and causing micro vibrations of that structure.  The micro vibrations are damped by the structure and cause temperature rise.  So, some of the RF energy has been reduced by conversion into heat.

This is how (one of the qualities of at least) Furutech NCF materials work.  

 

The problem is, that the RF energy to be reduced has to pass directly through the damping material for this process to work, and I have seen no evidence presented by anyone that this actually happens by having a single wire run from a component to the box.  Note that all these effects could be measured if they actually happen, but no manufacturer of such boxes has ever presented any such measurements, or indeed ever suggested that they have confirmed such operations via any measurements.

 

Precuts like the Furutech NCF ones are used directly where currents are high, such as in AC cable plugs, and outlets, which puts them in close proximity to high RF and EM fields where the materials can be "activated", but these grounding boxes are not near any such fields are far as i can tell.  There is no force I am aware of which would cause any RF energy, or EM energy to travel down a single wire to the grounding box, and no one has ever explained what force could cause this to happen.

 

RF energy is bit unpredictable to my understanding, if there are any RF engineers watching this thread with an open mind, perhaps they might offer some educated knowledge for us.  I would like to know if it is possible, or likely, that any RF energy might travel away from a component on a single wire connected to a box full of, say crushed quartz to be converted into heat.

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@ASRMichael, You are using the ASR Emitter and TAD DAC still?  The pictures I have seen of the TAD show it is not grounded, I am pretty sure its IEC socket even has only two prongs, can you confirm this?  This would mean that by design it is ungrounded.  As I recall the ASR amps use battery power, is that correct, or do they just use battery power for the input stage and AC power for the output stage?  It has been a long time since I have seen one of the ASR amps, but I do remember hearing one back when they first came on the scene and it sounded pretty damn good!

I am wondering if your system responds well to a "virtual ground" box, because it is not grounded in the first place, and I wonder what TAD might say about this, as they seem to be of the belief that leaving their component floating is better.

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13 minutes ago, barrows said:

@ASRMichael, You are using the ASR Emitter and TAD DAC still?  The pictures I have seen of the TAD show it is not grounded, I am pretty sure its IEC socket even has only two prongs, can you confirm this?  This would mean that by design it is ungrounded.  As I recall the ASR amps use battery power, is that correct, or do they just use battery power for the input stage and AC power for the output stage?  It has been a long time since I have seen one of the ASR amps, but I do remember hearing one back when they first came on the scene and it sounded pretty damn good!

I am wondering if your system responds well to a "virtual ground" box, because it is not grounded in the first place, and I wonder what TAD might say about this, as they seem to be of the belief that leaving their component floating is better.

Hi, Yes still using ASR Emitter II exclusive and TAD D1000 DAC. 

 

ASR Emitter has 2 power supplies feeding the Amp itself + 1 battery for Input stage of amp. On the back of each supplies there is a switch "Groundlift-Switch" "connects the power-ground with audio ground" "open or connected" I leave it Open. 

 

Yes TAD D1000 just has 2 prongs. I ground the key work mind you to ground spike. I'll send them an email to find out. 

 

Cheers

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23 hours ago, barrows said:

The above is entirely in error.  If you disagree, please explain the force which allows any energy to flow to a "ground box" attached to a component's ground by a single electrical wire.  There is no force which woudl make any energy, of any type "drain" to a box which is not low impedance.

 

"First there is the use of strong magnetics ... second I believe Tara uses a special ceramic mix ...third and completely different is the use of the grounding box as a central single point ground and lastly is the use of crystals such as Tourmaline as Davidpritchard has mentioned

Starting with the magnets and ceramic mix ... electrical signals are always accompanied by magnetic fields ... electrical fields follow magnetic fields when magnetic fields are properly aligned in a North South orientation

Strong magnets when placed on the ends of a conductor will help draw the current through the conductor based on the magnet's orientation

The use of magnets and ceramic mixes are attempts to increase the flow in the direction of ground from your components attempting to pull any extra voltage riding on the components ground plane away from the component

Grounding boxes used as Central Single Point grounding scheme ... here this type of grounding box attempts to create a single point of ground and equalize all ground paths to a single grounding point ... similar to Star Grounding schemes

When ever there is a difference in the actual length of the ground conductor's length ... there are small difference in the ground potential which translates to additional voltage ... which translate into noise and ground loop

By using special cables of exact equal length connected from your component's chassis to the grounding box ... you are attempting to equalize all your components ground planes and then the grounding box is connected to the wall outlet attempting to create a single point of ground ... there is still a bump in the rug with this system I will explain later ... bear with me

Most common is when the cable company doesn't tie their ground to the house ground ... you get a ground loop that presents itself as a humming in the speakers or a bar traveling across and up your display device

You will also have issues if you use two separate circuits that are not on the same phase of your main panel box ... different length ground paths cause potential differences and ground loops

Here's another good one many audiophiles are guilty of and don't realize

You plug your amps directly into the wall but you plug all your sources and low level devices into a power conditioner and then plug the power conditioner into the wall ... there is a big difference in ground path length from your low level devices to your power conditioner to the wall than your amp plugged directly into the wall

Besides creating ground loops the difference in ground potential is a open invitation for RF to couple to that conductor and invade your components

For more on this check out the Core Audio Technology website where they discuss problems with different length ground paths and how RF is easily coupled to your components

The last in the box scheme is Crystals ... I don't see how they can draw Voltage / Noise away from your component ... I'm under the impression that when current passes through or near a Crystal .. the Crystal is heated up and emits a beneficial counter wave reducing RF ... sorry I just don't get how Crystal work in a ground scheme

Now the Bump in the rug I mentioned earlier

All components should have two separate and Isolated ground planes from each other

One is the Third wire safety circuit which provide a low impedance path way to the ground rod in the event of a fault or short circuit until the breaker can trip ... this circuit is completely separate from the audio signal circuit and only provide a safe path in the event of a fault or short circuit ... there is no audio signal content on the Third wire safety circuit nor should there be ... it's a safety circuit not and audio circuit

The other ground plane should be a separate ground plane in each component of 0 voltage for the positive half of the audio signal to reference to ... the ground boxes are an attempt to remove any voltage attached to this ground plane as this noise will increase the Noise Floor

Problem is most manufactures designing to a price point of "good enough for Audiofools mentalities" only employ the Third wire safety circuit and tie the Signal ground plane to it (the Third wire safety circuit)

Bump in the rug ...

The Third wire safety circuit is a cesspool of noise created by high soil resistivity creating high impedance at the ground rod and pushing current back to the main panel because the current sees the main panel box as a lower path of resistance ... your town's Zoning has a minimum spec for ground rod impedance .. check with them ... you may be SHOCKED ;-)

Chemical reaction between the copper ground rod and chemicals in the soil will create galvanic reaction and voltage ... RF is also picked up by the ground wire from the ground rod to the main panel box and all the other safety wire through out the house are acting as antenna capturing RF and carrying it to the main panel box where all the safety wires are bonded together on a ground bus bar

Impedance difference between you main panel box and the ground rod can also set up reflection back to the source for any current the ground rod can't dissipate

As you can hopefully see there is a tremendous amount of potential for voltage to be generated and transmitted back to the main panel box through all the Third wire safeties in the house and then back to each component through their Third wire safety connection to ground

This is why you need a separate isolated ground plane in each component lying at 0 volts for the positive phase of the Audio signal to reference to ...

If your component uses the Third wire safety circuit ( and almost all do) as the Ground Reference for the positive signal ... then the positive half of the audio signal will see all the voltage/noise floating on the Third wire safety that has accumulated and the noise floor of the component will be raised or much higher

This is possibly what all those mega buck ground boxes are trying to address

For more info on noisy grounds and how to defeat them google "Ground Transient Blocker"

 

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ground-box-what-s-in-them

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47 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

"First there is the use of strong magnetics ... second I believe Tara uses a special ceramic mix ...third and completely different is the use of the grounding box as a central single point ground and lastly is the use of crystals such as Tourmaline as Davidpritchard has mentioned

Starting with the magnets and ceramic mix ... electrical signals are always accompanied by magnetic fields ... electrical fields follow magnetic fields when magnetic fields are properly aligned in a North South orientation

Strong magnets when placed on the ends of a conductor will help draw the current through the conductor based on the magnet's orientation

The use of magnets and ceramic mixes are attempts to increase the flow in the direction of ground from your components attempting to pull any extra voltage riding on the components ground plane away from the component

Grounding boxes used as Central Single Point grounding scheme ... here this type of grounding box attempts to create a single point of ground and equalize all ground paths to a single grounding point ... similar to Star Grounding schemes

When ever there is a difference in the actual length of the ground conductor's length ... there are small difference in the ground potential which translates to additional voltage ... which translate into noise and ground loop

By using special cables of exact equal length connected from your component's chassis to the grounding box ... you are attempting to equalize all your components ground planes and then the grounding box is connected to the wall outlet attempting to create a single point of ground ... there is still a bump in the rug with this system I will explain later ... bear with me

Most common is when the cable company doesn't tie their ground to the house ground ... you get a ground loop that presents itself as a humming in the speakers or a bar traveling across and up your display device

You will also have issues if you use two separate circuits that are not on the same phase of your main panel box ... different length ground paths cause potential differences and ground loops

Here's another good one many audiophiles are guilty of and don't realize

You plug your amps directly into the wall but you plug all your sources and low level devices into a power conditioner and then plug the power conditioner into the wall ... there is a big difference in ground path length from your low level devices to your power conditioner to the wall than your amp plugged directly into the wall

Besides creating ground loops the difference in ground potential is a open invitation for RF to couple to that conductor and invade your components

For more on this check out the Core Audio Technology website where they discuss problems with different length ground paths and how RF is easily coupled to your components

The last in the box scheme is Crystals ... I don't see how they can draw Voltage / Noise away from your component ... I'm under the impression that when current passes through or near a Crystal .. the Crystal is heated up and emits a beneficial counter wave reducing RF ... sorry I just don't get how Crystal work in a ground scheme

Now the Bump in the rug I mentioned earlier

All components should have two separate and Isolated ground planes from each other

One is the Third wire safety circuit which provide a low impedance path way to the ground rod in the event of a fault or short circuit until the breaker can trip ... this circuit is completely separate from the audio signal circuit and only provide a safe path in the event of a fault or short circuit ... there is no audio signal content on the Third wire safety circuit nor should there be ... it's a safety circuit not and audio circuit

The other ground plane should be a separate ground plane in each component of 0 voltage for the positive half of the audio signal to reference to ... the ground boxes are an attempt to remove any voltage attached to this ground plane as this noise will increase the Noise Floor

Problem is most manufactures designing to a price point of "good enough for Audiofools mentalities" only employ the Third wire safety circuit and tie the Signal ground plane to it (the Third wire safety circuit)

Bump in the rug ...

The Third wire safety circuit is a cesspool of noise created by high soil resistivity creating high impedance at the ground rod and pushing current back to the main panel because the current sees the main panel box as a lower path of resistance ... your town's Zoning has a minimum spec for ground rod impedance .. check with them ... you may be SHOCKED ;-)

Chemical reaction between the copper ground rod and chemicals in the soil will create galvanic reaction and voltage ... RF is also picked up by the ground wire from the ground rod to the main panel box and all the other safety wire through out the house are acting as antenna capturing RF and carrying it to the main panel box where all the safety wires are bonded together on a ground bus bar

Impedance difference between you main panel box and the ground rod can also set up reflection back to the source for any current the ground rod can't dissipate

As you can hopefully see there is a tremendous amount of potential for voltage to be generated and transmitted back to the main panel box through all the Third wire safeties in the house and then back to each component through their Third wire safety connection to ground

This is why you need a separate isolated ground plane in each component lying at 0 volts for the positive phase of the Audio signal to reference to ...

If your component uses the Third wire safety circuit ( and almost all do) as the Ground Reference for the positive signal ... then the positive half of the audio signal will see all the voltage/noise floating on the Third wire safety that has accumulated and the noise floor of the component will be raised or much higher

This is possibly what all those mega buck ground boxes are trying to address

For more info on noisy grounds and how to defeat them google "Ground Transient Blocker"

 

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ground-box-what-s-in-them

There are so many factually incorrect statements in the above that I do not know where to begin.  But let's just address the use of magnets to "draw" currents towards them.  As we are talking about AC voltages and currents here, a static magnet array cannot possibly work this way, as it cannot change its polarity back and forth to match the AC currents changing polarity: the magnets are always polarized in one direction only, so (if they even managed to work in the claimed way at all, which is unproven and suspicious to say the least) they would only attract the currents half of the time, and then they would repel the currents the other half of the time, rendering their presence completely ineffective.

 

I will just point out one other factually incorrect statement from the above which applies to properly constructed audio gear.  The AC ground connection is connected to chassis, as above.  But they claim "signal ground" is not connected to chassis, this is in error.  Properly wired audio components connect the AC ground to chassis, and the signal ground to chassis (although I hate the phrase "signal ground" as this is not really accurate, especially when considering balanced connections).  So, in properly wired gear, AC ground and "signal ground" are at the same potential.  BTW, again: if one connects their components to a single power distribution strip, with good quality power cables, and their components are properly wired internally and grounded, there will be no voltage differential between those components grounds, AC or signal.  If this is not the case, the proper solution is to seek out where the actual problem lies (internally wiring of the comports itself, or poor power cable design, or poor design of the distribution strip or power conditioner) and correct it; not to add additional wires to equalize the ground paths.  This is how one avoids ground loop currents in audio design and is well understood.  But, this only works at lowish frequencies, RF behaves differently, and there will always be some circulation of RF currents on the ground, such is unavoidable (also in the air around components, etc).  The best solution to avoid these RF currents causing sonic degradation is proper PCB design and layout, and using balanced/differential signaling as much as possible, which cancels out RF noise.

 

Additionally, if one has components that are not connected to AC ground through their power cabling (there are some audio companies who float their gear with no third prong connection at the IEC), interconnected with gear which is grounded to AC, then it may be advantageous to run a stout wire from each chassis to a common post to even out the ground potentials (essentially star grounding the components).  But no box of minerals or other devices is needed to achieve this, and I would first consult with the gear manufacturer and ask them why their gear is not grounded to the AC line, and see what they recommend: most companies have their reasons for wiring things they way they do.

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21 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

Am still waiting. When are we going to see the measurements of Sonore gear?

This is entirely OT here, and also has little to do with me.  I am consultant sub contracted with Sonore on product development and production.  I have supplied some measurements on the power supply designs for Sonore products which I am involved in showing approximate noise levels.  Additionally, Sonore products do exactly what Sonore claims they do, there are no extraordinary claims made for Sonore products which would require extraordinary proof. 

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6 hours ago, barrows said:

The problem is, that the RF energy to be reduced has to pass directly through the damping material for this process to work, and I have seen no evidence presented by anyone that this actually happens by having a single wire run from a component to the box.  Note that all these effects could be measured if they actually happen, but no manufacturer of such boxes has ever presented any such measurements, or indeed ever suggested that they have confirmed such operations via any measurements.

 

 

Welcome to the wacky world of audio ... it's trivially easy to show huge differences in technical performance, which has little bearing on key subjective qualities that really matter; and distortion anomalies that lead one to immediately reject the presentation of a superbly measuring rig are almost impossible to track down.

 

First of all, it would be highly likely that it would require extensive effort to show something happening, in the box. Secondly, to show that these measured behaviours are affecting something detectable by instrument, of how the components perform, would again be mighty difficult. And thirdly, to connect the now measured subtle variation in how the gear behaves, to something which a test group of listeners could reliably identify would be a major exercise .. the easy way out, me thinks, is to have the box connected, versus not connected - and listen ... there, we have just eliminated a major headache of money and time consuming work, 🙃.

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7 minutes ago, fas42 said:

First of all, it would highly likely that it would require extensive effort to show something happening, in the box

All that would be required is testing by an RF lab.  If the companies offering these products do not even have this done, then my conclusion is that they have no evidence of the "effect", and are selling a theoretical product.  At the prices charged for these boxes, one time testing to confirm the results by an RF lab is warranted, period.  An RF lab can easily determine if any RF energy is "traveling" along the cable to the box, and can also easily determine of any RF energy is being damped/converted to heat, by the box.

I find it interesting, and perhaps informative, that I can find no electronics company which actually makes audio components, making these grounding boxes: many electronics manufacturers regularly have their components tested by an RF lab.  Most high end companies do not own the gear necessary to test at RF, they typically test with an AP at audio frequencies, and send stuff out for RF evaluation.

I am not suggesting that each unit needs to be tested, just that the concept should be verified through testing that it actually does at least some of what is claimed, before selling to the consumer/audiophile.

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16 minutes ago, barrows said:

All that would be required is testing by an RF lab.  If the companies offering these products do not even have this done, then my conclusion is that they have no evidence of the "effect", and are selling a theoretical product.  At the prices charged for these boxes, one time testing to confirm the results by an RF lab is warranted, period.  An RF lab can easily determine if any RF energy is "traveling" along the cable to the box, and can also easily determine of any RF energy is being damped/converted to heat, by the box.

I find it interesting, and perhaps informative, that I can find no electronics company which actually makes audio components, making these grounding boxes: many electronics manufacturers regularly have their components tested by an RF lab.  Most high end companies do not own the gear necessary to test at RF, they typically test with an AP at audio frequencies, and send stuff out for RF evaluation.

I am not suggesting that each unit needs to be tested, just that the concept should be verified through testing that it actually does at least some of what is claimed, before selling to the consumer/audiophile.

 

Let me see ... if I have some source of RF energy, and I have any wire connected to that, then RF frequencies can be propagated to the end of the wire - last time I checked, I thought that's how radio transmitters worked ...

 

Measuring whether any heat rise occurs could be extremely difficult - the fact that the bulk of the material matters implies that only tiny bits of energy are "damped" by each particle - we are probably talking extremely small fractions of a degree, which would be swamped by naturally occurring temperature variations in the environment.

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3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Let me see ... if I have some source of RF energy, and I have any wire connected to that, then RF frequencies can be propagated to the end of the wire - last time I checked, I thought that's how radio transmitters worked

RF works by broadcasting through the air, signal level in air has to be much higher in level than what can be picked up by an antenna, because so little of the signal will be picked up.

 

I have worked with these compounds/elements quite a bit (crystalline elements which damp RF, with piezo properties, and/or those which produce negative ions and far infrared, and these compounds only work in areas where high currents are present, and a subsequent high level of RF energy.  this means right around AC input cabling, for example, as used by Furutech, not at the end of a random wire, which is also connected to low impedance ground: the power cable).

 

If one wants to get some benefit out of a box of quartz powder, for example, run the power cable from the wall to the power strip directly through the box (and use an unshielded cable), now thta I could easily believe may have some positive benefits in noise reduction. 

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Are we not on the verge here saying it’s just zero & one’s? How can it sound different? Many things we don’t understand in audio, & just because we can’t test it doesn’t mean it’s not improving the sound quality. There are many instances in our audio chain that we are not measuring. 
 

@barrows as I said before why not ask your dealer for a loan of a box & review yourself? Surely being an design engineer you’re open to this suggestion? 

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1 minute ago, ASRMichael said:

Are we not on the verge here saying it’s just zero & one’s? How can it sound different? Many things we don’t understand in audio, & just because we can’t test it doesn’t mean it’s not improving the sound quality. There are many instances in our audio chain that we are not measuring. 
 

@barrows as I said before why not ask your dealer for a loan of a box & review yourself? Surely being an design engineer you’re open to this suggestion? 

Actually, everything which changes sound quality in audio can be measured.  The only problem is we do not, typically, measure everything, and most of us, typically, do not know which things which need to be measured to cover every aspect of sound quality.  

the idea held by some audiophiles that there are mystical and magical aspects to sound quality which are not known is really in error.  In fact, we can measure things at much lower levels than what is even audible at all.  We just miss on how we correlate measurements with listening results, but are getting better all the time on that as well.  Some engineers are much better at measuring what does matter than others.

 

I certainly do not believe, for example, that a simple distortion profile of a single 1 KHz tone shows all that matters!  That is ridiculous considering it only addresses a single discrete frequency when music signals are complex and their arrangement in time is critical to their fidelity.  

 

But this does not mean we should distrust the measurements we do use-for example, these devices claim to reduce noise, and this is relatively simple to measure and verify.  Certainly, even if they reduce only noise at RF, any decent RF lab can verify this.  Electronic audio reproduction is not magic, it is science and engineering.

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18 minutes ago, barrows said:

RF works by broadcasting through the air, signal level in air has to be much higher in level than what can be picked up by an antenna, because so little of the signal will be picked up.

 

I am talking about how RF energy can be transferred to the plate inside the box, where the minerals, etc, may, or may not react to the RF voltages that they are subject to. In the same way that a static charge is dissipated, when a means of discharging that excess potential energy is connected to the charged object - so could the materials in the box have an impact on RF frequencies.

 

18 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

I have worked with these compounds/elements quite a bit (crystalline elements which damp RF, with piezo properties, and/or those which produce negative ions and far infrared, and these compounds only work in areas where high currents are present, and a subsequent high level of RF energy.  this means right around AC input cabling, for example, as used by Furutech, not at the end of a random wire, which is also connected to low impedance ground: the power cable).

 

This assumes that the connected ground is low impedance at RF frequencies - when a wide trace of copper on a circuit board has to be just right, over a length of some inches, to behave itself in the RF region, I find this to be a pretty huge leap ...

 

18 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

If one wants to get some benefit out of a box of quartz powder, for example, run the power cable from the wall to the power strip directly through the box (and use an unshielded cable), now thta I could easily believe may have some positive benefits in noise reduction. 

 

Which may in fact be true ... now, has anyone tried such an experiment?

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11 minutes ago, barrows said:

Actually, everything which changes sound quality in audio can be measured.  The only problem is we do not, typically, measure everything, and most of us, typically, do not know which things which need to be measured to cover every aspect of sound quality.  

the idea held by some audiophiles that there are mystical and magical aspects to sound quality which are not known is really in error.  In fact, we can measure things at much lower levels than what is even audible at all.  We just miss on how we correlate measurements with listening results, but are getting better all the time on that as well.  Some engineers are much better at measuring what does matter than others.

 

I certainly do not believe, for example, that a simple distortion profile of a single 1 KHz tone shows all that matters!  That is ridiculous considering it only addresses a single discrete frequency when music signals are complex and their arrangement in time is critical to their fidelity.  

 

But this does not mean we should distrust the measurements we do use-for example, these devices claim to reduce noise, and this is relatively simple to measure and verify.  Certainly, even if they reduce only noise at RF, any decent RF lab can verify this.  Electronic audio reproduction is not magic, it is science and engineering.

Well maybe we’ll find the next higgs boson! 😂

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24 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

the idea held by some audiophiles that there are mystical and magical aspects to sound quality which are not known is really in error.  In fact, we can measure things at much lower levels than what is even audible at all.

 

Agree.

 

Quote

 We just miss on how we correlate measurements with listening results, but are getting better all the time on that as well.  Some engineers are much better at measuring what does matter than others.

 

Also agree.

 

Quote

 

I certainly do not believe, for example, that a simple distortion profile of a single 1 KHz tone shows all that matters!  That is ridiculous considering it only addresses a single discrete frequency when music signals are complex and their arrangement in time is critical to their fidelity.  

 

Yes too.

 

Quote

 

But this does not mean we should distrust the measurements we do use-for example, these devices claim to reduce noise, and this is relatively simple to measure and verify.  Certainly, even if they reduce only noise at RF, any decent RF lab can verify this.  Electronic audio reproduction is not magic, it is science and engineering.

 

They claim to reduce noise which is audibly significant. Therefore, the value of what they do should be 'measured' by listening tests - not by whether they have some measurable behaviour in an RF lab.

 

To me, that is what science is about ... if it is asserted that some device has some impact on what the human senses detect, then that's precisely how it should be verified.

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5 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Well maybe we’ll find the next higgs boson! 😂

Quantum Physics is very interesting, but audio reproduction is not quantum physics.

 

@fas42, Agreed on RF and grounding: in fact, part of my entire point is that normal AC grounding is not effective at RF.  As an adjunct to that point, neither is attaching a wire to chassis ground and running it to a box of elements and compounds.  In my system I actually use ground chokes to reduce RF circulation on ground on purpose, so that RF energy is not shared between components and is not circulating on ground much.

The real ways to reduce RF energy impinging on audio circuits are:

 

1.  Use balanced circuitry when ever possible, including at the PCB level.

2. Choose well engineered components with PCBs laid out be very experienced high speed circuit designers, these guys know how to lay out boards such that they are immune to contamination by RF energy.  Pay special attention to this in components which are likely to generate RF of their own (DACs and other digital devices)-in other words, it is unlikely that a DAC designed by an analog engineer with no high speed circuit design training/experience is going to be well enough implemented to be free from RF interference.  In some really bad RF areas one might consider components which are transformer coupled as well.

3.  Address external RF sources of interference, primarily from the AC line (power conditioners), and maybe airborne sources like cell signals etc (but this is location dependent).  Shielding and filtering applies here, as well as connecting any commercial computer gear by optical cabling and keeping it far away (preferably in another room of the home and on another AC circuit) from the audio system.  Use well designed, shielded, balanced interconnect cables.

 

The above are some real engineering solutions to combating RF problems and are highly effective. 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

They claim to reduce noise which is audibly significant. Therefore, the value of what they do should be 'measured' by listening tests - not by whether they have some measurable behaviour in an RF lab.

Noise is easily quanitifiable and measurable at any level where it could actually effect the playback system, there is no reason to not measure products which claim to reduce noise to verify their actual performance.

 

I would be OK with a rigorous, blinded listening test as well to verify such results, but there really is no need for this as levels of noise can be measured far lower than anything which is audible in any way.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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Just now, barrows said:

Noise is easily quanitifiable and measurable at any level where it could actually effect the playback system, there is no reason to not measure products which claim to reduce noise to verify their actual performance.

 

I would be OK with a rigorous, blinded listening test as well to verify such results, but there really is no need for this as levels of noise can be measured far lower than anything which is audible in any way.

 

Huhhh? It seems to me that you keep trying to run away from the fact that these boxes have an audible impact; normally being in a positive direction - why not accept that there is "something going on", and work to understand it better?

 

8 minutes ago, barrows said:

@fas42 As an adjunct to that point, neither is attaching a wire to chassis ground and running it to a box of elements and compounds.  In my system I actually use ground chokes to reduce RF circulation on ground on purpose, so that RF energy is not shared between components and is not circulating on ground much.

 

Agree that hooking a grounding box up should be improved upon, as a means of fixing up whatever weakness that they help to resolve.

 

8 minutes ago, barrows said:

The real ways to reduce RF energy impinging on audio circuits are:

 

1.  Use balanced circuitry when ever possible, including at the PCB level.

2. Choose well engineered components with PCBs laid out be very experienced high speed circuit designers, these guys know how to lay out boards such that they are immune to contamination by RF energy.  Pay special attention to this in components which are likely to generate RF of their own (DACs and other digital devices)-in other words, it is unlikely that a DAC designed by an analog engineer with no high speed circuit design training/experience is going to be well enough implemented to be free from RF interference.  In some really bad RF areas one might consider components which are transformer coupled as well.

3.  Address external RF sources of interference, primarily from the AC line (power conditioners), and maybe airborne sources like cell signals etc (but this is location dependent).  Shielding and filtering applies here, as well as connecting any commercial computer gear by optical cabling and keeping it far away (preferably in another room of the home and on another AC circuit) from the audio system.  Use well designed, shielded, balanced interconnect cables.

 

The above are some real engineering solutions to combating RF problems and are highly effective. 

 

"Everything matters" in audio - and dealing with RF crap is part of the headache ... the real issue is that there is no overall strategy in the industry. Everyone's winging it - and the poor consumer has to work out a solution for himself, "amidst the chaos" 🤪.

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

Because such is not physically possible by any known understanding of physics or engineering, and so far no one participating in this discussion has even postulated a wild speculation as to how these devices could make any difference whatsoever.  All I have seen is wild claims of magical devices which suck in energy by no principle known; hence people who "hear" differences may be imagining them.  Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.  When someone makes a claim that something which cannot work by current understanding of physics and engineering, that person needs to provide some actual evidence to have any credibility.

 

So, all these people who report a positive change when using them must be off their faces, right ... 😁? If I demanded an explanation for every weird thing I've heard over the years from rigs, that had no obvious reason for occurring, straight off - before doing anything about it ... I would be so far behind in understanding what I need to do to improve the sound, I would have given up trying to get somewhere, years ago.

 

If I hear something, then I accept that something is going on - it may take me years to get a handle on it, and even now I'm still trying to sort some annoying behaviours, without buying "expensive stuff". "Grounding" is just one of a myriad of possible factors that matter - and to me the best approach is to work out the simplest solution - or workaround. Somewhere along the line I'll come across a paper, or some investigative work - and I'll have an "Ah hah!" moment ... a plausible explanation for what I was hearing happening.

 

Quote

I also object to the nomenclature, if what these boxes are actually claiming to do is some RF noise reduction, we should not be calling them grounding boxes at all, as they have nothing to do with ground.

 

Okay, call it RF Noise Reduction then ... there are plenty of things out there, in life, which have 'wrong' names - but mankind has learned to live with this, 😉.

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12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

So, all these people who report a positive change when using them must be off their faces, right ... 😁?

I would not say that...  Listening tests can be quite flawed.  I have been trained to listen test, and have been paid for it, but I have made errors in dong so also, especially at first glance where I might perceive a sound quality improvement which is not there upon further investigation.  Then we have the problem of a difference, but not necessarily an improvement, as humans we are psychologically pre-disposed to hear any change, at first, as a change for the better, as a change is somewhat "exciting" compared to the sound we are used to.  Only in longer term listening (and especially upon removal of the change after longer listening and getting used to it) are we in a good place to evaluate whether a change actually is a change for the better.

I suspect a lot of people are hearing some difference, maybe.  For example, attaching a wire like this, an antenna, is at least as likely to pollute the component with more RF energy than it is to reduce it.  Perhaps some people re responding to that change. 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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36 minutes ago, barrows said:

I would not say that...  Listening tests can be quite flawed.  I have been trained to listen test, and have been paid for it, but I have made errors in dong so also, especially at first glance where I might perceive a sound quality improvement which is not there upon further investigation.  Then we have the problem of a difference, but not necessarily an improvement, as humans we are psychologically pre-disposed to hear any change, at first, as a change for the better, as a change is somewhat "exciting" compared to the sound we are used to.  

 

The way to get around that, is to assemble a pile of "marginal" recordings - those are ones that from repeated hearing of them you know can sound wonderful, but also pretty awful; the recording's limitations, and other aspects of the mastering mean that there is a very fine line between those two, subjective, experiences - any extra distortion thrown in by the playback chain makes them impossible to listen to; they grate, have a shrieky treble, and are just downright unpleasant. I have a few piles of such organised right now, for confirming whether the evolution of the active speaker rig is on track or not - "exciting" is not the word to use when a wrong move is made; "excruciating" is closer to it ... 😁.

 

36 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

Only in longer term listening (and especially upon removal of the change after longer listening and getting used to it) are we in a good place to evaluate whether a change actually is a change for the better.

 

Disagree. If the "right" recording, as noted above, is used, then the feedback is instant - liken it to the dentist probing a spot where the numbing injection hasn't done its trick, 😉.

 

36 minutes ago, barrows said:

I suspect a lot of people are hearing some difference, maybe.  For example, attaching a wire like this, an antenna, is at least as likely to pollute the component with more RF energy than it is to reduce it.  Perhaps some people re responding to that change. 

 

Pretty easy for people to do this, as an experiment ... but, how many go to the effort of just hooking up a wire or two, mimicking the 'grounding' box setup, without any box - and seeing if they hear any difference?

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@fas42I'm in RF heaven at my place, second only to planet Mercury, so I won't be hooking a wire to my gear and making an antenna. However, if you tell me what you think is in the magic box (taurine/cat litter, other), I'll make one and listen to it here. 
 

Caveat: if it's hundreds of dollars to source the kitty litter, no-dice. 


I have Luxman gear and they float the chassis, as I recall FYI. New Lux coming sometime in January, so now or never.
 

Of course, the results will be limited to my set of specific variables, but no getting around that. 
 

I have seen these "grounding" antenna boxes made of wood and acrylic. I imagine as long as it's not metallic, it's fine--since we're just making it all up anyway.

 

Is copper OK for the bit inside? I don't know what to call it. Not an anode. Not a cathode. Since there is no current flow, to @barrowssensibly repeated point.

 

Care to describe a spec?

I'm MarkusBarkus and I approve this post.10C78B47-4B41-4675-BB84-885019B72A8B.thumb.png.adc3586c8cc9851ecc7960401af05782.png

 

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On 1/4/2021 at 5:34 PM, barrows said:

There are so many factually incorrect statements in the above that I do not know where to begin.  But let's just address the use of magnets to "draw" currents towards them.  As we are talking about AC voltages and currents here, a static magnet array cannot possibly work this way, as it cannot change its polarity back and forth to match the AC currents changing polarity: the magnets are always polarized in one direction only, so (if they even managed to work in the claimed way at all, which is unproven and suspicious to say the least) they would only attract the currents half of the time, and then they would repel the currents the other half of the time, rendering their presence completely ineffective.

 

I will just point out one other factually incorrect statement from the above which applies to properly constructed audio gear.  The AC ground connection is connected to chassis, as above.  But they claim "signal ground" is not connected to chassis, this is in error.  Properly wired audio components connect the AC ground to chassis, and the signal ground to chassis (although I hate the phrase "signal ground" as this is not really accurate, especially when considering balanced connections).  So, in properly wired gear, AC ground and "signal ground" are at the same potential.  BTW, again: if one connects their components to a single power distribution strip, with good quality power cables, and their components are properly wired internally and grounded, there will be no voltage differential between those components grounds, AC or signal.  If this is not the case, the proper solution is to seek out where the actual problem lies (internally wiring of the comports itself, or poor power cable design, or poor design of the distribution strip or power conditioner) and correct it; not to add additional wires to equalize the ground paths.  This is how one avoids ground loop currents in audio design and is well understood.  But, this only works at lowish frequencies, RF behaves differently, and there will always be some circulation of RF currents on the ground, such is unavoidable (also in the air around components, etc).  The best solution to avoid these RF currents causing sonic degradation is proper PCB design and layout, and using balanced/differential signaling as much as possible, which cancels out RF noise.

 

Additionally, if one has components that are not connected to AC ground through their power cabling (there are some audio companies who float their gear with no third prong connection at the IEC), interconnected with gear which is grounded to AC, then it may be advantageous to run a stout wire from each chassis to a common post to even out the ground potentials (essentially star grounding the components).  But no box of minerals or other devices is needed to achieve this, and I would first consult with the gear manufacturer and ask them why their gear is not grounded to the AC line, and see what they recommend: most companies have their reasons for wiring things they way they do.

 

Factually incorrect statements you say, lol. I guess Nordost’s explanation about how their QKORE works must also be factually incorrect then.

 

“A great deal of the electrical noise in hifi systems is caused by imperfections in the power domain. These imperfections may be generated by airborne pollution on the AC line that are induced, in part, by increasing amounts of Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, and cellular signals. Airborne pollution can take the form of high frequency interference, noise, and stray magnetic fields, which lead to AC line contamination. A poor, or “unclean”, ground causes more performance imperfections than most people realize. Without an effective ground point, the entire foundation of your sound system becomes jeopardized—and unfortunately, most listening rooms simply do not have access to a designated line, attached to a ground rod.”

 

“The QKORE is a parallel grounding device, which provides an artificial, “clean” earth for hifi audio systems using both an electrical and mechanical approach. This unique product combines Nordost’s patented Mono-Filament technology with purpose-built, Low-Voltage Attractor Plates (LVAPs), constructed with a proprietary metal alloy and a passive electronic circuit, in order to draw stray high frequency noise and voltage-generated magnetic fields to a manufactured earth point, leaving a clean reference behind. This passive system is contained in a mechanically tuned housing, and outfitted with gold-plated, WBT binding posts, which easily connect each component to an artificial ground. By providing for a balanced and very “clean” ground point, by-products of electrical balance imperfections between voltage and ground are no longer added to other pollutants, dramatically increasing high quality audio circuit performances.”

 

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/quantum-resonance-qkore1-ground-unit

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