GROUNDING

[ASRMichael]

Products like this..like google search, literally thousands of products. Widely used in some countries for ground pits. 

 

https://www.powerandcables.com/product/earth-tapes-rods-bars-copper/marconite/

[barrows]

10 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Products like this..like google search, literally thousands of products. Widely used in some countries for ground pits. 

 

https://www.powerandcables.com/product/earth-tapes-rods-bars-copper/marconite/

Right, but that does not show any quality which makes the material itself create a low impedance.  This just improves the conductivity of the ground rod into the earth (the earth is a a low impedance path).  It does not show that the material itself has any force associated with it which creates a low impedance.  I have heard of tricky audiophiles improving their ground rod conductivity in some clever ways, such arranging gutters to drain into the area of the ground rod to keep the soil damp: but attaching a wire to an audio component, and then putting it into a discrete bucket of water will do nothing.  I am all for improving the actual ground to earth, that makes some sense and could improve things, but what we are talking here is virtual ground boxes which must present a low impedance to have any effect, and so far there is nothing to indicate that they possibly could.

 

edit:  If one wants to improve their ground rod, I might suggest getting a new one and having it plated with gold or perhaps heavy silver.  I would imagine that ground rods in the earth likely oxidize pretty quickly, and copper oxides are poor conductors.  A silver plated ground rod would likely maintain low impedance for far longer than copper, and silver oxides are still good conductors.

[ASRMichael]

well who knows then.....Maybe we’ll discover an explanation in time..or not! 
 

Interesting you mention about the quality of ground rods. Cheers, because I’ve seem gradual increase in resistance over the last 3 months. I initially thought I need to water the area, but actually made it worse. It’s been a really wet winter here, so maybe too much water or like you say the rod is maybe corroded. 

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, PeterG said:

For those without technical understanding--it is readily available if you have a good dealer nearby or if you read the interwebs.

If a dealer is able to demonstrate a genuine improvement when using a Grounding Box, it shows that he

needs qualified people to rectify the problems with either the gear in use or his shop's earthing system.🤣

 

It's interesting to note though,that so far nobody appears to have addressed the specific needs for double insulated equipment with 2 wire mains leads, where basically the only connection between the A.C. mains side and the  powered side is via a small HF transformer with perhaps only a very low value capacitor between both sides

[ASRMichael]

Just to point out. I have dedicated mains which I class as good as it gets. Also class my system as very good and revealing, yet I still have good results with grounding boxes.  
 

As far as I’m aware there is nothing to fix in my system. 

[fas42]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

While I do agree, somewhat, with the above, it is very important that we do understand much, much more about what is important for audio playback (technically) than what we do not.

The most important thing is not to make the mistake of dismissing the things which we do understand, just because we may not know everything.

 

 

Yes, especially right now the knowledge is better than has ever been before - as it should be; evidenced by the remarkably good value for money audio gear now available.

 

Where the knowledge was severely lacking 30 years ago, and still is today to a large degree, is being aware of how important it is that every, key, weakness in the complete chain has been adequately addressed - irrespective of the cost, the bling, and the reputation of the manufacturer, the SQ will not be satisfactory, with respect to the money paid and effort expended, unless every 'flaw' in the rig has been sorted.

 

I've used the leaking swimming pool example in the past - if water is constantly being lost, then no matter what you do trying to fix it, you will have to keep topping up the pool - until the last leak is found, and mended. Turns out audio systems work the same way - convincing replay only occurs when "the last leak is mended".

[PeterG]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

No, that is not the scientific method.  the scientific method involves:

A theory, perhaps supported by an observation, followed by an experiment to prove or disprove the theory, empirically.

 

There is no empirical evidence to support the theory which you have, therefore this is not the scientific method.  If you would like to actually prove the theory, show us the measurements of noise reduction of a "virtual ground" box vs. a system which is well grounded through its AC cables.

Sorry if I was not direct enough.  Based on his own and the manufacturer's experience, the dealer/reviewer generates the hypothesis that a certain change in my system will improve my sound.  I then test that hypothesis by listening.  Based on results from my listening, I then either pay the dealer or post to the reviewer...and the cycle begins again.

 

I trust this is clear enough now

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Just to point out. I have dedicated mains which I class as good as it gets. Also class my system as very good and revealing, yet I still have good results with grounding boxes.  
 

As far as I’m aware there is nothing to fix in my system. 

 Have you tried measuring A.C. volts between the metal cases, or the "earth" side of it's output sockets   of ALL of your gear and Mains Earth ?  You may even measure as high as HALF the actual mains voltage with some of them.(SMPS) 

[PeterG]

4 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

From my POV, listening to a "grounding box" in a system would be the best way to determine if it is a positive addition. No doubt.

 

That said, kicking around ideas on an audio forum is a way to gather comments, opinions, experience, etc. from others which might be helpful.

 

Trying to determine the "why" it behaves a certain way, or "what" it is, and the discussion itself, is part of a scientific methodology.

Granted, my Velveeta cheese comment wasn't "good" science, and maybe didn't advance the knowledge-base. Mea culpa.

 

From these exchanges, if we "learned" that a "grounding box" was positive in some systems, not because it was creating a ground path, but because it was behaving as an antenna, that would be good to know.  

I'm with you on the first 3 paragraphs.  But your 5th paragraph is only a hypothesis.  Nobody has offered any actual evidence that a Nordost QKore/Qbase acts as an antenna.  With respect to this particular hypothesis, my experience is the opposite--my system had a significant reduction in the noise floor.

[ASRMichael]

16 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Have you tried measuring A.C. volts between the metal cases, or the "earth" side of it's output sockets   of ALL of your gear and Mains Earth ?  You may even measure as high as HALF the actual mains voltage with some of them.(SMPS) 

No I’ve not, but could do I suppose. What exactly do I need to do? 
 

I have no SMPS on my dedicated mains. 

[PeterG]

51 minutes ago, sandyk said:

If a dealer is able to demonstrate a genuine improvement when using a Grounding Box, it shows that he

needs qualified people to rectify the problems with either the gear in use or his shop's earthing system.🤣

 

Ha--touche!  (But that would not have been the best test.)

 

I cannot comment on my dealer's tech team or electrical system.  I did not bother listening at the store, I took the gear home with me, and I've heard it only on my system.

 

I have good electronics, but nothing in my home's electrical system has been optimized for audio.  It may be that an electrician could have improved my sound by the same degree with dedicated lines and grounding, and maybe this would have been less expensive than the Nordost system.  I much prefer plug and play, and there is no way to test dedicated lines, etc before buying--so it was a no-brainer for me to buy the Nordost based on sound improvement from my previous state.

 

It may also be that the ideal set up would be both.  This was Serinus's experience at Stereophile https://www.stereophile.com/content/nordost-qkore-system-grounding-accessories

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

No I’ve not, but could do I suppose. What exactly do I need to do? 
 

I have no SMPS on my dedicated mains. 

All that you need to do is use a DVM as described. IF any of your devices measure more than several volts to mains earth, try connecting their case or an unused RCA socket to mains earth using for example a series 100 ohm .25 Watt resistor and measure the difference across it again. It should then be greatly reduced and you may even hear an improvement. You may even be able to use a direct earth connection as John Swenson has recommended , but initially try this for safety.

Alex

 

P.S. 

 I have done this with my STB which feeds coax SPDIF into the DAC of my main system with a worthwhile improvement. In fact, 100 ohms gave a better result than a direct earth due to a resulting minor Earth loop.

[fas42]

10 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

I have good electronics, but nothing in my home's electrical system has been optimized for audio.  It may be that an electrician could have improved my sound by the same degree with dedicated lines and grounding, and maybe this would have been less expensive than the Nordost system.  I much prefer plug and play, and there is no way to test dedicated lines, etc before buying--so it was a no-brainer for me to buy the Nordost based on sound improvement from my previous state.

 

IME, all audio playback is compromised unless extensive efforts are made to improve the quality of the mains feed, and the associated grounding - I have never been able to achieve what I consider competent SQ in any of my systems, for over 3 decades, unless I pay a huge amount of attention to this ... it just goes with the territory, 😁. The manufacturers of the components never do enough to engineer sensitivity to this completely out of the picture - so, the user or otherwise has to come on board, and tweak this to an acceptable level.

 

Very simple experiments can confirm this - what one does next is up the fussiness of the listener; what for him is an acceptable compromise.

[barrows]

3 hours ago, PeterG said:

my system had a significant reduction in the noise floor.

Please show your measurements of this.  

 

@sandyk  My components are grounded by their AC cables to a shared distribution strip (Cardas Nautilus).  When I measure for voltage differences between the individual components cases, or RCA shells, if you prefer, there is no AC difference voltage.  There is also no difference between the components case voltage and the AC ground at the distribution strip, as it should be. Something is not right if one measures differences in these voltages, either with the components own internal wiring, or with the power cables in use.  BTW, my amplifier uses a SMPS.  Indeed, if anyone measures voltage differences they have a problem which should be addressed, but a "virtual ground box" is not the appropriate solution for this!

[PeterG]

27 minutes ago, barrows said:

Please show your measurements of this.

Since I've already made it clear that I do not take a technical approach, but rather an empirical one based on days of listening, I take this as passive aggressive.  Kind of pitiful.

 

As I wrote earlier, for those with even a passing interest, I recommend that you read reviews of the QKore/QBase from well respected reviewers at Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.  For those with serious interest I recommend taking a demo set home for a few days.  It appears that barrows hopes you will do neither of these things, for reasons that are a mystery.

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

Something is not right if one measures differences in these voltages, either with the components own internal wiring, or with the power cables in use.

Surely you are aware that the vast majority of STBs, readily affordable DVD and BR players these days use a SMPS, and there is usually a measured A.C. voltage of as much as half of the A.C. mains voltage  between their  0 volts and actual mains earth ?

This applies to most of the Asian sourced SMPS commonly used in them. 

 

 This is caused by the obligatory low value, high voltage capacitor between both sides of the HF transformer for RF/EMI compliance .

This is also the reason why you often get a small shock when plugging/unplugging them into earthed Power Amplifiers etc. The voltage is from a high impedance source, so is not dangerous. However , if you use several of these devices with a typical Preamp for example, then the effects are additive and may result in an unpleasant "bite"

In my case the "earths" from each input of my DIY Preamp are also individually switched through, so this lessens the potentially nasty little "bite" 

[R1200CL]

Here is a few posts about grounding. I like the idea of an extra earth rod. 

 

[sandyk]

40 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Here is a few posts about grounding. I like the idea of an extra earth rod. 

 

DIY Version.-Ground Lift Adaptor

[barrows]

3 hours ago, PeterG said:

Since I've already made it clear that I do not take a technical approach, but rather an empirical one based on days of listening, I take this as passive aggressive.  Kind of pitiful.

 

As I wrote earlier, for those with even a passing interest, I recommend that you read reviews of the QKore/QBase from well respected reviewers at Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.  For those with serious interest I recommend taking a demo set home for a few days.  It appears that barrows hopes you will do neither of these things, for reasons that are a mystery.

 

And I would suggest that your insults, and lack of respect are noted here.  You claim: " my system had a significant reduction in the noise floor" (something which, if true, actually would be quite easy to measure, even with a phone app alone) but offer no actual evidence of such.  You claim you use the scientific method, but have demonstrated no empirical evidence of actually doing so.  All I did was ask for some evidence, and you then responded by insulting me.  You might also recall that I am the original author of this thread.

In this thread I am attempting to point out why there is no technical support for the the implementation of "virtual grounding boxes" having positive benefits to sound quality.  I am certainly willing to listen to anyone who offers any possible technical explanation for how such a device might have a positive sonic impact, so far, no one has.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, so far no one has even been able to offer even a speculative theory of how such a device could produce any positive result, much less proof of such.

[fas42]

My goodness, you are so confident that grounding boxes are pure snake oil ... curious, I wandered around a few forums and websites; and it was pretty clear that there was a genuine impact, for many users - usually positive, but if hooked up to other grounding mechanisms without thought, could have negative consequences on SQ.

 

The interesting last one was here, https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cad/ ... yes, the place where the babbling of the reviewers can be pretty hard to digest at times; but this review had some interesting content. In particular, the thoughts of the designer of the particular unit; and the subjective take when the writer listened to telling recordings - this is operating in the region where I concern myself, when tweaking - the losses of SQ when the grounding box is not connected are of the type that I work to eliminate.

 

So, to me it is very clear that this technique is genuinely useful - like so many others, it can be additive in reducing noise impacting the system, and, as always what you gain will depend upon, umm, everything. Whether you wish to spend ridiculous money for one, or DIY it, there is something there ... to insist that such can't be so, just because you don't like the concept, is not very useful in furthering understanding of what may be useful, and why, for improving audio quality.

[R1200CL]

11 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The interesting last one was here, https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cad/ ... yes, the place where the babbling of the reviewers can be pretty hard to digest at times; but this review had some interesting content.

 

The reviewer could at least open that box. Wouldn’t expect much inside. 
Some explanation here. http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/CAD_Ground_Control.pdf

[sandyk]

50 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

The reviewer could at least open that box. Wouldn’t expect much inside. 
Some explanation here. http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/CAD_Ground_Control.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L82DHQfcF8

 

[Confused]

Further to the above:

 

https://www.computeraudiodesign.com/gc1-ground-control/

 

In the text per the link above there is this statement "The Ground Control contains a mixture of materials that converts high frequency energy into heat."

 

Is this even possible? 

[ssh]

Why not just wait for MQA-GROUND,  get the special green light and be done with it?

[PeterG]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

And I would suggest that your insults, and lack of respect are noted here.  You claim: " my system had a significant reduction in the noise floor" (something which, if true, actually would be quite easy to measure, even with a phone app alone) but offer no actual evidence of such.  You claim you use the scientific method, but have demonstrated no empirical evidence of actually doing so.  All I did was ask for some evidence, and you then responded by insulting me.  You might also recall that I am the original author of this thread.

In this thread I am attempting to point out why there is no technical support for the the implementation of "virtual grounding boxes" having positive benefits to sound quality.  I am certainly willing to listen to anyone who offers any possible technical explanation for how such a device might have a positive sonic impact, so far, no one has.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, so far no one has even been able to offer even a speculative theory of how such a device could produce any positive result, much less proof of such.

 

Yes--when you ask for data that I have already implied that I do not have, then then assert that "all I did was ask for evidence", that is passive aggressive (twice now).  Also, you appear to believe that because I am responding TO your posts I am responding FOR you.  That is not the case, nor do I have anything to prove to you.  

 

I have written because I think the Nordost QKore/QBase system can be very helpful to AS readers, and I hope that others try it and report back.   In many cases it would take them less time to notice a difference than it has taken them to read your posts.  

 

This would be a great topic for dueling objective/subjective reviews.