Schiit Yggdrasil (Unison USB) vs T+A DAC 8 DSD - mini review

[Mark V.]

1 hour ago, Gavin1977 said:

Indeed 🤪

Hope your power amp doesn't need more than 1.27V RMS... But I am really curious to see your review.

[realDHT]

9 minutes ago, Mark V. said:

The ECD Fractal has max output voltage of 1.27 V RMS, if your power amp has a lot of gain this could work, but most power amps do need more. In my setup I would definately need a pre amp with the Fractal DAC... Which is one reason which holds me back from buying it...

I would say power amps very rarely needs more than 1.27 V RMS. The difference after all is only 4 dB from the standard 2 V level. 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Mark V. said:

The ECD Fractal has max output voltage of 1.27 V RMS, if your power amp has a lot of gain this could work, but most power amps do need more. In my setup I would definately need a pre amp with the Fractal DAC... Which is one reason which holds me back from buying it...

 

Sorry, not true.

Most power amps need more, yes, but for full output. A preamp does nearly always attenuation, so 1.27V input is  enough to drive the power amp to high output.

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

Confirmed from ECDesigns - will work with software volume control.  So I’ll start listening tomorrow!

[Mark V.]

34 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Sorry, not true.

Most power amps need more, yes, but for full output. A preamp does nearly always attenuation, so 1.27V input is  enough to drive the power amp to high output.

 

Matt

I know what I do need in my setup... So this 1.27V RMS isn't enough for me.... My current DAC has 5V RMS output and I do use digital volume control which is at -10 dB or higher when listening loud.

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Mark V. said:

I know what I do need in my setup... So this 1.27V RMS isn't enough for me.... My current DAC has 5V RMS output and I do use digital volume control which is at -10 dB or higher when listening loud.

 

When you set your DVC to 0dB you have then a very similar SPL with the ECD DAC.

BTW, with these values you must have a low gain power amp and/or low sensitivity speakers.

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

ECDesigns Fractal DAC and U192ETL up and running.  Software volume control works fine.

 

U192ETL won’t power from my JCAT USB XE though, which is a shame.  Works fine from the motherboards main USB ports though, so I presume these are just able to offer more current.

 

Will post a new article after several days listening / comparisons.

[matthias]

10 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

U192ETL won’t power from my JCAT USB XE though, which is a shame. 

 

Shame on JCAT or ECD?

The USB XE consumes about 1 Amp, so the PS must deliver at least 1,5 Amp to feed the extra for the Vbus for the U192.

Would be nice if you can feed the U192 from the JCAT for SQ reasons.

Maybe you can contact @Marcin_gps ?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

[Gavin1977]

Yep that’s my plan - I think it’s a JCAT issue.  The power supply I use for the JCAT can deliver 2.8amps, which should be more than enough.

[Gavin1977]

Review of the ECDesigns DAC will have to wait till my preamp arrives:  the DA96 has 375 Ohm output impedance, my existing T+A DAC 8 DSD has 22 ohms output impedance.  I think the high output impedance of the DA96 is causing the lower registers not to be as fleshed out as I would like when driving my system. The Master 9 I have on order has an output impedance of 1 ohm - so should drive anything well and resolve this issue.

[CatManDo]

On 12/29/2020 at 5:02 PM, Gavin1977 said:

In comparison the T+A DAC 8 DSD that I have sounds digitally squeaky clean (remember the first time you heard the Pet Shop Boys on CD?), and music just doesn’t coalesce as well.  T+A DSD 8 DSD doesn’t do natural decay as well.  The T+A is pasteurised.  The Yggy is a 21’s century Sony Walkman in comparison.  Presentation is otherwise very similar between both of these DACs, they both have presence and bring performances into your living room.

 

Have you tried the various filters of the Dac 8 ? Some have a rather significant impact on the sound.

 

In my experience, "Oversampling 4 (pure Bezier interpolator)" sounds extremely clean indeed, while "Oversampling 3 (Bezier-interpolator plus IIR-filter)" sounds warmer and softer. I prefer the precise, detailed filter, except for aggressive sounding recordings which need to be tamed.

 

That concerns PCM playback. Many people on this forum use DSD upsampling in the software player to send a DSD signal to the T+A, the DSD DAC part being considered it's strongest point. I use DSD input only for my collection of DSD files (ripped SACDs).

[Gavin1977]

10 minutes ago, CatManDo said:

 

Have you tried the various filters of the Dac 8 ? Some have a rather significant impact on the sound.

 

In my experience, "Oversampling 4 (pure Bezier interpolator)" sounds extremely clean indeed, while "Oversampling 3 (Bezier-interpolator plus IIR-filter)" sounds warmer and softer. I prefer the precise, detailed filter, except for aggressive sounding recordings which need to be tamed.

 

That concerns PCM playback. Many people on this forum use DSD upsampling in the software player to send a DSD signal to the T+A, the DSD DAC part being considered it's strongest point. I use DSD input only for my collection of DSD files (ripped SACDs).

I’ll give it a go.

[matthias]

4 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Review of the ECDesigns DAC will have to wait till my preamp arrives:  the DA96 has 375 Ohm output impedance, my existing T+A DAC 8 DSD has 22 ohms output impedance.  I think the high output impedance of the DA96 is causing the lower registers not to be as fleshed out as I would like when driving my system. The Master 9 I have on order has an output impedance of 1 ohm - so should drive anything well and resolve this issue.

 

I am not sure if the described sound signature is caused by the output impedance. I know excellent pre amps with an output impedance of 300 Ohm which do not show this behaviour.

The cause might be that ECD do not use active buffers or amplifiers what seems to be part of their design philosophy.

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

2 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

I’ll give it a go.

Filters on the T+A only relate to the PCM playback, the DSD section (which is what I used for comparison as it is the best sounding) is direct DSD, so no filters applied, except that ones I use in HQPlayer which do make a difference, but not as much as closed-form or sinc-m

[matthias]

2 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Filters on the T+A only relate to the PCM playback, the DSD section (which is what I used for comparison as it is the best sounding) is direct DSD, so no filters applied, except that ones I use in HQPlayer which do make a difference, but not as much as closed-form or sinc-m

 

AFAIK, there are two T+A analog filters, one is always switched on, named CLEAN and WIDE. DSD64 works with CLEAN only, all other DSDs can work with both.

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

1 minute ago, matthias said:

 

AFAIK, there are two T+A analog filters which are always switched on, named CLEAR and WIDE. DSD64 works with CLEAR only, all other DSDs can work with both.

 

Matt

Yes I have tried though - I run WIDE as I feed it 256DSD

[Marcin_gps]

On 12/30/2020 at 11:53 PM, matthias said:

 

Shame on JCAT or ECD?

The USB XE consumes about 1 Amp, so the PS must deliver at least 1,5 Amp to feed the extra for the Vbus for the U192.

Would be nice if you can feed the U192 from the JCAT for SQ reasons.

Maybe you can contact @Marcin_gps ?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

Gavin wrote in a different topic that the issue was solved with another USB cable. 

 

Regards, 

Marcin

[matthias]

On 12/31/2020 at 12:44 PM, Gavin1977 said:

The Master 9 I have on order has an output impedance of 1 ohm - so should drive anything well and resolve this issue.

 

Gavin,

is the Master 9 similar to the Master 1 which got a rave review from CP on hifi-advice?

When do you get it?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

Mines stuck in Germany at the moment due to postage restrictions to the UK...  long delay.

 

I think the only difference is that the Master 9 has a headphone output, you can change the gain and it also has some impedance matching features.  Other than that they’re the same by what I can see.

[matthias]

7 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

Mines stuck in Germany at the moment due to postage restrictions to the UK...  long delay.

 

It is a pity, so I suppose the ECD bass issue is still persistent?

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

It is a pity, so I suppose the ECD bass issue is still persistent?

 

Matt

I need more time with it - so don't take it as a judgement - one thing that is clear is that the bass presentation is simply different to the other DAC's I've heard.  I think people are also correct that the ECDesigns DAC might show more benefits when you optimize components upstream (hence they the DA96ETF has the edge), so that's another factor affecting sound reproduction.

 

So it's a waiting game I'm afraid.

[matthias]

On 1/6/2021 at 7:22 PM, Gavin1977 said:

I need more time with it - so don't take it as a judgement - one thing that is clear is that the bass presentation is simply different to the other DAC's I've heard.  I think people are also correct that the ECDesigns DAC might show more benefits when you optimize components upstream (hence they the DA96ETF has the edge), so that's another factor affecting sound reproduction.

 

So it's a waiting game I'm afraid.

 

Hi Gavin,

 

I am VERY curious about your listening impressions with the ECD Fractal DAC now after arriving of your Audio-gd preamp.

Could you compare the ECDs to your other DACs under review?

Looking very much forward to your findings.😃

Thanks

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

Will post in due course... cheers

[Gavin1977]

Here are my findings for the ECD Fractal DAC+U192ETF combo.

 

I would strongly recommend using this DAC with warm sounding tubes or something like Naim amplification, as the neutral voicing would suit these better.  It is intentionally designed to have a very neutral sound signature - it just didn't work for me in my system.  This was my main reason for returning and ECD were very good in accepting my return.  So system matching remains important.

 

My thoughts remained the same regardless of using DAC direct to power amp or via the Audio-gd Master 9 preamp (which I love by the way).

 

Positives:

• Amazing detail retrieval and clarity - Mola Mola Tambaqui level with regular pcm

• Superb soundstage height

• Lovely with FIR upsampling and TPDF dither via HQPlayer 

Negatives

• I could not get the DAC to lock onto a 96kHz signal, only 88.8kHz worked.
• Lack of a traditional output stage meant that my full range speakers sounded like stand mounts - world class stand mounts, but stand mounts all the same - this is not a bass heavy DAC and very different to the T+A and Schitt sound.  I did not manage to resolve this.  HiFi-Advice.com found the same for the Mosaic DAC they tried (there conclusion on this is actually mentioned in another review).
• Some tracks just didn't sound right at all - Armand van helden - the backing instrumental sounds wrongly distorted/edgy and I don't know why.  Classic / Jazz sounds amazing mind.

Other notes:

• Very smooth, but dry and tight presentation - no reverb like on the Schitt.
• Phantom Image is more centrally orientated and coalesces between the speakers. Not as wide sounding as some DAC's (but FIR/TPDF negates this to a large extent, but with some loss of soundstage depth).
• ECD Fractal DAC might be very susceptible to main power quality and potentially quality of the hosts USB power.  I didn't investigate further, shame as I now have a very high quality 5v linear.

Fractal DAC is capable of amazing realism, but perhaps it's so transparent that it’s finicky about a lot of things. 

 

T+ DAC 8 DSD remained my preferred option.

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Gavin1977 said:

Lack of a traditional output stage meant that my full range speakers sounded like stand mounts - world class stand mounts, but stand mounts all the same - this is not a bass heavy DAC and very different to the T+A and Schitt sound. 

 

How do ECD compare to Schiit and T+A regarding slam, PRaT and drive?

Thanks

 

Matt