Is there any Apple network-attached streaming product with acceptable output jitter?

[boris_the_spider]

I'm streaming ALAC files via iTunes over a wireless network to an Apple Airport Express, then using the optical TOSLINK output to a DAC, either using the optical input of the DAC or first converting to electrical spdif.

 

It's widely known that the Apple Airport Express has very bad jitter on the digital output stream, and some DACs are known to have problems locking to it.

 

Does anyone know of an Apple product I could use instead of the Airport Express, that would have more acceptable jitter? The old Airport Express - the rev G - is one option but that's an old product.

 

I could go to Squeezebox or Sonos but first want to see if I can just replace the one piece of gear.

 

thanks

 

 

 

[audioengr]

I have worked with Sonos, Squeezebox2 and 3, Duet, Touch, AirPort Express, AppleTV, Transporter and many others.

 

Going to Sonos will only make the jitter worse unless you reclock it. You could even reclock the AE.

 

Of all of these in stock form, the Touch has the lowest jitter.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[boris_the_spider]

Steve,

 

I realize the Squeezebox Touch has good jitter but what I'm asking is if there are any current Apple products that have acceptable jitter.

 

Now I know you guys make the Pace Car to reclock it but it's a bit out of my budget. It seems a shame a $99 product (that used to work fine...) might require a $1200 fix.

 

Doesn't Apple make anything usable by itself, that I could use instead of the Airport Express?

 

And I knew Sonos had high jitter but worse than the AEX? The ESS Sabre locks to Sonos but not to the AEX, or so I understood.

 

thanks

BorisTheSpider

 

 

[skyline]

Birdland has a new product coming out, atvDAC, a DAC/amplifier that works with Apple TV:

http://www.birdland.com/products/atvdac.php

 

I owned several Birdland DACs years ago, and they disappeared for awhile. They seem to be back with this new product.

 

 

[audioengr]

AppleTV is better than the AE, but not as good as the Touch.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[scott_man]

Skyline:

 

Looks interesting -- thanks for the link. Any idea of the price point?

 

Thanks.

 

Scott B.

 

[skyline]

Hi Scott, no idea on the price. I did enjoy their products back in the day though. This is the first time they've updated their product line/web site in years.

 

[wappinghigh]

Could someone with the new AppleTV please plug the toslink (optical audio) into a DAC which reports the incoming bitrate, turn on airplay, and try streaming a hirez 24/96 track from itunes. Then please confirm (yes/no) if the tracks plays as 24/96 on your DAC.

 

Cheers

 

Wap

 

[audioengr]

Apple TV will only do 44.1 I believe.

 

If you want 96, its Duet, Touch or Transporter.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[Codifus]

it upsamples everything to 48 Khz. The airport express, whilst being extremly jittery, still delivers bit perfect 44.1 audio.

 

I added a used Theta TLC to my airport G model and it made a significant difference.

 

CD

 

[TS0711]

I run my Apple TV (optical) into a Monarchy Super DIP, and from the DIP to my Levinson using the DIP's BNC output (75ohm). The sound is surprisingly nice. I picked up the Super DIP (which handles de- jittering) for under $200 on the used market.

Tony

 

 

[boris_the_spider]

I never understood how you can upsample 44.1 to 48. They are not perfect multiples. At some point the 48 KHz clock will sample the 44.1 KHz data twice in one clock cycle. At that point it will not be a bit perfect upsample.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

[boris_the_spider]

Hey Tony, I was looking at the Monarch DIP too, at $200 new.

 

Did you have any problems syncing into the Levinson before that? Are you really sure the Monarchy DIP improved the sound you hear?

 

 

 

 

 

[seta]

Apple TV upsamples everything to 48kHz. I've tried.

 

There's Micromega Airstream which is based on the Airport Express but with a new case, new power supply and coaxial S/PDIF digital output.

 

There also several new units announced at CES2011 which are compatible with apple's Airplay.

 

[TS0711]

I can't say that I hear a difference when using a 15 foot glass optical into the Levinson. The 360s is a work of art, that handles poor feeds exceptionally well, and good feeds just sound great.

 

Sorry I can't hear a difference but I wanted to run a 15 foot IC and BNC is good for that.

 

Tony

 

[same same but different]

First, who exactly told that AE has bad jitter?

Lots of rumors, no real proofs. Many ways to measure it, correct ones are the most expensive and required pro equipment, not DIYers "measurement toys".

 

Second, try it by yourself: G version sounds flat and boring, N version sounds completely different and much better. Doubt? Get both and compare - they are more than that cheap.

 

Third, there's no jitter measurements for N, and I think there's no reason to measure it: simply compare N versus straight wire connection to your DAC. If your system, by the chance, has so high sonic resolution that allow you to hear the difference (the real step-like difference) - OK then, continue your search. Make sure you get good glass cable, though.

 

[boris_the_spider]

If you are talking about the audio output of the 802.11n AE - it sounds really terrible!

 

As far as the jitter on the optical output - it's pretty well documented the 802.11n AEX has high jitter, but I've never seen an actual measurement.

 

There are a couple of DACs that don't sync to the 802.11n AEX. That's pretty indicative of bad jitter.

 

One of my DACs syncs reliably to it, another not so well.

 

I bought a g version a few days ago so will see how it does. I did see on some other forum the g version fixes the issue and the original g version is supposedly very acceptable jitter.

 

 

 

 

[same same but different]

Nobody even speak about audio output, skip it.

Optical jitter - any single trusted proof link? :-) That's the point.

 

Sync: again, get good cable. Glass, short. At least, Wireworld 5-6 or Lifatec.

I never experienced sync problems, with few dacs.

 

Finally, compare it's sound versus USB of Firewire connection, and only after that you may have conclusions.

 

[boris_the_spider]

You can find a lot of threads on the subject if you do a google search. For instance:

 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72820.340

 

Personally I am using two DACs with the AEx-n. One syncs to it no problem, the other doesn't. And the one of mine is not any DAC mentioned in the link above.

 

Regarding the audio output: a couple of posts back you appeared to be talking about the audio output when you said the G sounds a lot worse than the N. If you didn't mean the audio output then could you suggest why a DAC fed off the s/pdif stream might sound worse with the G than the N as you reported.

 

Anyway I did see somewhere the G fixed one guy's sync problem and so I will be getting one any day courtesy of UPS, so will see how it does, and will report back.

 

Also, if it comes down to it I should be able to measure the jitter and report back, if I get around to it.

 

[ar-t]

Even when they are wrong:

 

"Sync: again, get good cable. Glass, short."

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Anything under 1 km is so, is wrong. Period.

 

Unless you mean TOSLINK, which isn't glass, because it is a multi-mode plastic. Nothing helps it.

 

[same same but different]

boris_the_spider:

 

It's simple. AE-G s/pdif output made on old cheap "DAC" chip PCM270X, which only get data via USB. Yes, it can be modded well if you change power and cristal, but it's still poor due to passive one-way USB data receive method. You may read everywhere about passive vs. async USB data transmission, and maybe heard the difference by yourself, if you have few different DACs too.

 

AE-N: Marvell chip (which itself is a huge step) receive data at Ethernet level and produce different quality s/pdif signal output. It is so differ that you don't need even modify it's power supply. You can, though, and it will be better because optical transmitter is not the best one.

 

ar-t:

Of course it's about toslink. Don't be an expert, more, be afraid of experts: ) Instead, use ears.

 

[Codifus]

None of the airport expresses, G or N model, use the USB port to play music.

Same same, are you saying that the airport G converts the itunes ethernet stream to usb then to spdif?

 

CD

 

[same same but different]

Codifus, that's right. That's what happening in G model. Stream is converting from ethernet stream to usb -> PCM270X -> spdif.

 

[sensel]

Boris,

 

Another Apple product that might work is to run directly from a Mac Mini, which has an optical jack disguised as a minijack, like on the Express.

 

Your music can reside directly on the Mini, connected to it via Firewire drive (faster than internal drives on older Minis) or, the Mini can just be a simple link in the wireless network. However, I suspect that as a wireless link, it might perform the same as an AE. But I wonder as a direct connection, would it be better? Apple put that optical connection there with a media center in mind.

 

I am sure someone here will report that it is not a good idea for various reasons though.

 

[Audio_ELF]

@Sensel

 

A MacMini is a good solution for audio playback. Set it up headless controlled by an iPod Touch or iPad. Files can be stored either internally, on an external drive or on a network drive: on all but highest end systems the sound quality would be identical.

 

The simple connection method is via optical but for improved quality use a DAC with good USB connection or a USB to SPDIF converter.

 

Playback can be with iTunes or for improved quality use Amarra, Pure Music, Ayrewave or Audionirvanna.

 

Eloise