Where in my sound chain to put the DSP box?

[992Sam]

I posted this elsewhere only to realize we have a spot for such a question so here goes (again) ..

 

So I decided to spring for the newly released DG-68 Room EQ from Accuphase... got a deal on one that I couldn't pass up... but now I've got a bit of anxiety on how best to connect to my current system (in my signature)..

 

Currently everything is fed thru the dCS Rossini via Balance XLR (the DP-560 SACD player is also via SPDIF to my Rossini) .. most of my music come via streaming thru the dCS, but the only exception is when playing pure SACD, which I have a separate XLR balance connection directly into my C1100 pre-amp for.

 

Anyway, the DG-68 can be connected via XLR between the C1100 and the MC462 .. that is the easiest way that I can see, however I wonder if I also couldn't set it up so that the two Accuphase products connect via the proprietary cable they have for SACD (called HS-Link) then I can connect the DG-68 just after the dCS and before the C1100 pre-amp..  

 

So in short...  does the Room EQ have to go between the pre-amp and amp? or can it go before he pre-amp and after the dCS DAC?

 

ideas, thoughts? 

[992Sam]

nobody? no takers?  It is a mind puzzle for sure getting this all in the correct order. 

[ecwl]

Sure... You may not like what you hear though

Ideally, you don’t want to have to go through the Accuphase ADC/DAC. So if your only source is the SACD player, I would put SACD player via S/PDIF into Accuphase digital S/PDIF with digital output S/PDIF into Rossini.

I don’t know dCS Rossini enough to know whether you can use it to stream and output S/PDIF into Accuphase and then have Accuphase input back into Rossini.

If you can’t do this, to me, it really doesn’t matter whether you put Accuphase between Rossini and pre-amp vs between pre-amp and amp since you’re now going analog in and out of Accuphase so you’ll be using Accuphase’s ADC and DAC.

[992Sam]

3 minutes ago, ecwl said:

Sure... You may not like what you hear though

Ideally, you don’t want to have to go through the Accuphase ADC/DAC. So if your only source is the SACD player, I would put SACD player via S/PDIF into Accuphase digital S/PDIF with digital output S/PDIF into Rossini.

I don’t know dCS Rossini enough to know whether you can use it to stream and output S/PDIF into Accuphase and then have Accuphase input back into Rossini.

If you can’t do this, to me, it really doesn’t matter whether you put Accuphase between Rossini and pre-amp vs between pre-amp and amp since you’re now going analog in and out of Accuphase so you’ll be using Accuphase’s ADC and DAC.

 

if that's the case, am I better off then just putting the DG68 (DSP) between the pre-amp and the amp and keep the rest of my system the way it original was?

[ecwl]

14 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

 

if that's the case, am I better off then just putting the DG68 (DSP) between the pre-amp and the amp and keep the rest of my system the way it original was?

Okay. I really should have given this more thought from your point of view rather than my point of view.

I’m always more interested in digital correction than analog correction.

 

There is actually a difference between putting the DG68 between the Rossini and pre-amp vs the pre-amp and amp. The difference is output voltage. The output voltage from the Rossini I presume is constant whereas the pre-amp would vary. And ideally, you want to give the DG68 the best signal-to-noise ratio to work with. So I think your best bet actually is to put the DG68 between Rossini and pre-amp. And then depending on the Rossini’s fixed output voltage, you should set the DG68 to the appropriate gain level to ensure you don’t clip the DG68. Sometimes, it’s even better to set the Rossini to a variable volume output but dial it in to co-incident with the sensitivity of the DG68 so that you get the optimal SNR. But that’s probably overkill

 

You know, for the price of the Accuphase, I would expect my dealer to set it up for me (except for the pandemic). That said, maybe the deal you made with the dealer is that you get a huge discount but you have to set it up yourself. Which I guess is a fair trade?

[992Sam]

ok, I drew a diagram.... what are your thoughts?  I hope you can understand my writing ... but yes, I underhand your point about the voltage issue with it being AFTER the preamp..

 

I got a huge discount and the dealer lives far away!  But I don't mind "learning" this stuff.. just need a few smarter people than me to bounce ideas off.

 

 

[992Sam]

btw, the HS-Link2 cable between my CD player (DP560) and the DG68 is a proprietary cable that only works between Accuphase products and allows me to get DSD over to the DAC on the DG68 for SACD..

 

 

[ecwl]

Looks like a good setup to me. Although I don’t know why you would send S/PDIF from DG68 back to Rossini. Are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? You want SACD playback for be digitally corrected by DG68 but go through Rossini? And then bypass DG68. But then for Rossini streaming you have to go analog? The DG68 is a DAC like Rossini too so I’m sure you get sound just by feeding your SACD into the DG68. 
 

my suggestion is optimize your setup by hooking the DG68 between the Rossini and preamp first, using your current setup. And then worry about trying directly hooking up the sacd player to DG68 later. 

[992Sam]

19 minutes ago, ecwl said:

Looks like a good setup to me. Although I don’t know why you would send S/PDIF from DG68 back to Rossini. Are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? You want SACD playback for be digitally corrected by DG68 but go through Rossini? And then bypass DG68. But then for Rossini streaming you have to go analog? The DG68 is a DAC like Rossini too so I’m sure you get sound just by feeding your SACD into the DG68. 
 

my suggestion is optimize your setup by hooking the DG68 between the Rossini and preamp first, using your current setup. And then worry about trying directly hooking up the sacd player to DG68 later. 

 

you're a smart one!  I like this... the Convo is getting my mind to see things a bit differently...

 

 

So yes, I want the SPDIF so can play all not SACD digital media (CD, etc).. via my DP560 into the Rossini..   but I also want to use the better DAC in the DG68 for the SACD part.. make sense?   But yes, SACD is the lowest priority for me.. 

[cjf]

Just a thought/question...The DCS Rossini is a very nice and very expensive DAC so given the addition of this new device which will now be using its own AD/DA converters I suspect that the "flavor/sound" of the DCS you have, I assume, come to enjoy will now be replaced with the "flavor/sound" of the Accuphase. I'm not saying that means it will sound bad but it appears that the Accuphase is half the price of the DCS so one might assume it may not sound as good when it comes to its DA conversion capabilities. That is, assuming you by into component cost having some bearing on final SQ (I personally fall into this camp in most cases).

 

I guess my point is, given this new addition you can most certainly get away with having a far less expensive component in the chain that is doing what the DCS does now since you will no longer be taking advantage of all that expensive technology included in the DCS DAC.

 

Of course there are at least 10 different ways to skin the CAT when it comes to EQ/DSP/Room Correction implementation. Adding another "box" to the signal path is one of them and admittedly probably the easiest route to go for most folks who want to do this but adding a box does have its disadvantages as well.

 

These days many people are choosing to do all the "Correction" in software before the DAC so that there is no need to alter the sound contributions of other gear already present in the system which live downstream of the PC to achieve the same result.

 

Hopefully you dont take the intention of my post wrong. It was just meant to bring up the possibility that you could probably recoupe some of your existing investment, if you wanted to, by selling off an expensive piece of gear that is now being overridden by a new piece of gear.

[992Sam]

12 minutes ago, cjf said:

Just a thought/question...The DCS Rossini is a very nice and very expensive DAC so given the addition of this new device which will now be using its own AD/DA converters I suspect that the "flavor/sound" of the DCS you have, I assume, come to enjoy will now be replaced with the "flavor/sound" of the Accuphase. I'm not saying that means it will sound bad but it appears that the Accuphase is half the price of the DCS so one might assume it may not sound as good when it comes to its DA conversion capabilities. That is, assuming you by into component cost having some bearing on final SQ (I personally fall into this camp in most cases). 

 

from everything I've read and talked with (DG-58 owners) ... this this is VERY transparent.... but that said, there is no way around the fact that I am adding another AD/DA stage...  and the main thing I was trying to do is "color" the sound as little as possible, but at the same time address/remedy the small room / bass response issue..

 

I have a 30 days return period for the DG-68... if I find the tone changes to the worse, I can return it... but for now, I am open to solving the best possible way to set this up as it is intended to be used.  

 

The easy way its to put it between the pre-amp and amp.... there have been some good points made as to why not, even if Accuphase themselves promote this as the best option...   So the other options (which is a lot more complicated) is what I am looking at now... I've got 2 weeks or more before it gets to me, so I am doing the due diligence now. 

[One and a half]

@992Sam, the DG-58 is now replaced with the DG-68, the new Accuphase model has some very worthwhile improvements, sometimes, it's not so drastic. For instance the 2020 pre-amps have improvement to the S/N some  5db or more, that's considerable on paper, would you hear this..some would suppose :)

 

The Accuphase product is designed for the long term, 15-20 years about the minimum expectation, my vintage E-205 (bought 1988) integrated amp still works. Don't feel that the new model is a must have I need to point out, once an Accuphase model is no longer available from the factory, that's the end, no exceptions, they draw the line in the sand, and keep what's left for spare parts.

 

Your dealer may offer a very good price for the DG-58, hopefully more in line with the list JPN or AU prices. The US prices for Accuphase are way too high artificially, another topic. Even if there is a AD/DA conversion, that impact is minimal. What would be worse (IMHO) is to place DSP at the source computer, despite the infinite number of taps, digital domain bits is bits blah blah.  When playing DSD, the DSP needs to convert to PCM on the fly, so more processing, creating more noise. That system is completely bypassed when listening to SACD/CD in your case. 

 

The HS-Link is 'beyond transparent'. When playing SACD on a DP-720 and DC-950 DAC at home connected by HS-Link, regular digital (Roon/Lumin etc.)  can't come anywhere near the sound-stage, detail resolution and fatigue free, there's just no noise.  Was very close to pulling the trigger on a DG-58/68, but then Covid came along....

 

 

[ecwl]

10 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Was very close to pulling the trigger on a DG-58/68, but then Covid came along....

But if you’re already running Roon, why not hire Mitch Barrett to create a convolution filter for you, or just pay for Acourate or Audiolense, Mitch’s book, a calibrated microphone like UMIK-1 and do it yourself with some assistance here. The cost would be a fraction of DG-58/68. The main downside would be the filter would not apply to your tuner or vinyl.

[992Sam]

5 hours ago, One and a half said:

@992Sam, the DG-58 is now replaced with the DG-68, the new Accuphase model has some very worthwhile improvements, sometimes, it's not so drastic. For instance the 2020 pre-amps have improvement to the S/N some  5db or more, that's considerable on paper, would you hear this..some would suppose :)

 

The Accuphase product is designed for the long term, 15-20 years about the minimum expectation, my vintage E-205 (bought 1988) integrated amp still works. Don't feel that the new model is a must have I need to point out, once an Accuphase model is no longer available from the factory, that's the end, no exceptions, they draw the line in the sand, and keep what's left for spare parts.

 

Your dealer may offer a very good price for the DG-58, hopefully more in line with the list JPN or AU prices. The US prices for Accuphase are way too high artificially, another topic. Even if there is a AD/DA conversion, that impact is minimal. What would be worse (IMHO) is to place DSP at the source computer, despite the infinite number of taps, digital domain bits is bits blah blah.  When playing DSD, the DSP needs to convert to PCM on the fly, so more processing, creating more noise. That system is completely bypassed when listening to SACD/CD in your case. 

 

The HS-Link is 'beyond transparent'. When playing SACD on a DP-720 and DC-950 DAC at home connected by HS-Link, regular digital (Roon/Lumin etc.)  can't come anywhere near the sound-stage, detail resolution and fatigue free, there's just no noise.  Was very close to pulling the trigger on a DG-58/68, but then Covid came along....

 

 

 

I actually ordered the DG-68 .. so you're preaching to the choir....  I plan to keep this thin until well into my 70's and I just barely turned 50! ;) 

 

[992Sam]

A very smart and helpful member of AudioAficanado.com posted this idea up...  I think this is going to be the answer! 

 

 

SAM992_cabling.pdf

[992Sam]

anyone else have any comments?  That last link I posted, has a diagram.