Best Streamer without a music server (no Roon etc)

[m5sime]

Hi all,

 

I have tinkered and played over the years and admit to have not even switched on my system for 6 months. I have an old Sonos system for the office and have a full Roon Core setup to MicroRendu streamer (into Mutec re clock and Mytek DAC).. All good.. But honestly, I have no local NAS music, have no interest to store any locally. I subscribe to Tidal and Spotify and Amazon Music.. I like to be able to switch on and surf for something to listen to (or have playlist suggestions). 

 

The Roon based setup always seems to take 20 mins of arsing around with passwords and updates when it has not been on for a while.. I would like a recommendation of a streamer that has it's own App and eco-system.. Sonos is one.. (not Hifi enough).. I did consider going Auralic before lock-down..  I have only Apple devices.. I would love to hear your advice..

 

Best

Simon

[m5sime]

Thanks all! Big votes for the blue sound. I had considered it but not seriously. I was thinking something more pro that might also allow me to keep my Mutec re clocker investment (usb to AES). 
 

A big part of this is the software experience and so I do need to get some on loan and see how I get on with it. 

[m5sime]

38 minutes ago, Pro Jules said:

The only reason I sent back the Node 2i was that it didn't offer parametric EQ.

 

 I think it's a great product otherwise and it's been revealed that it can play Amazon Music back at the correct sample rates (unlike the ios or Mac apps who default to an up sampled 192 for everything) 

 

I have no files so desire no drive set up so picked the Auralic Aries G1 to stream Qobuz. 

 

It's usb out to the Mutec works great and it's satisfying to see "32 bit" displayed in the app. 

 

I am very happy with its parametric eq. (I copied numbers over from settings I had fine tuned on my Mac) 

 

People supercharge these with modified power supplies - perhaps one day I will try that. I have no grumbles with the stock set up. It's big and weighs an absolute tonn. it's been working like a trooper these last few weeks. You can power it on and off via the app! What's not to like? It also works with Spotify Connect so when friend send me links to music I can play it quickly I don't think it works with Amazon Music yet. (But I recently jumped ship to go bit perfect with Qobuz)

 

Give it a try? 

 

 

Great insights! Thanks.. How much difference /value do you get from the EQ out of interest? 

[m5sime]

Revisiting the thread:

 

auralic - doesn’t support Spotify in the app - major issue for simplicity of streaming. I have Tidal also but Spotify is a need

 

bluesound - looks great but doesn’t support full 192/24 over digital out or full MQA over digital out. Again - an issue.. dealbreaker - maybe not but I have an old Sonos ZP90 that does all this and the UX on Sonos is great. 
 

I really don’t want the answer to be Roon but if it is, I have this setup sorted already. I need to look for more options. 
 

cheers 

[m5sime]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Did you look at Aurender?

Not yet in detail. Quick scan and the hardware seems pricey (More than an Auralic Aries).  Is this the case?

[m5sime]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure how much all the models cost, but Aurender supports what you want supported. 

I checked, and while the app and the devices look very nice - they are expensive (for my taste).. The Lumin options looks more palatable but the app looks a little dull and Spotify is not within the app again (Spotify Connect to the player). Almost seems a shame that a DIY genius has not found a way to mod the Node 2i to get a better digital out..

[m5sime]

4 minutes ago, keeper said:

LUMIN is a great product with fantastic support 

Not sure about the Spotify not supported?

 

See the below
https://www.luminmusic.com/support-settings.html

 

Bowie in Spotify app direct to my LUMIN  D2 as indicated on the bottom left.

 

 

Thanks! That is using Spotify connect as a way of casting to the LUMIN vs being in the app.  Not a huge deal breaker. Does it work well? My microrendu doesn’t work well with casting from Spotify 

[m5sime]

29 minutes ago, keeper said:

To be fair I don’t use it, I was just showing you the info.

But after using my LUMIN I’d be very surprised if it had any issues as everything else works fine, the app may look basic but the LUMIN app is very flexible once you get used to it.

 

ive just let my Roon subscription lapse and just use the LUMIN app, or for missing Tidal features I may want to use I switch to airplay or Tidal connect via my Sonos connect.

 

Ive been very pleased with my D2 and Peter is on the forum if you have any issues or questions.

Hi - I’m really keen on learning your experience as my ease of use benchmark is Sonos.. I used Roon to a rendu but gave up as I’m an infrequent music listener and everytime I wanted to play it - it was all sleeping and logged out etc. Sonos just always works. I only stream from the cloud services and while I have a nas and some ripped CDs I never use it. Hence looking for that ultra easy to use always ready solution but ideally also is a bit better than Sonos ZP90 spdif into my mutec and then mytek DAC 

[m5sime]

1 hour ago, Cebolla said:

 

 

Don't most if not all of the apps belonging to official Spotify Connect supporting streamers that have Spotify 'in the app', so including the Bluesound Node 2i's app, just automatically open & switch you to the official Spotify app anyway when you access the streamer app's 'own' Spotify function?

Hi - Spotify connect is a casting tech where the app of Spotify remains king. Like Roon. Apps like Sonos and I think Bluesound integrate Spotify as a service like Tidal. I can search in Sonos and it finds tracks across tidal and Spotify automatically 

[m5sime]

Ouch. So only Sonos has the native Spotify integration then..? My ZP90 player is outdated now and shelved for app support so perhaps this is changing in the new S2 app.. 

[m5sime]

My Sonos S1 app

[m5sime]

I think my next step needs to be a loaner LUMIN mini and a play.. thank you all for enriching this thought process!!

[m5sime]

26 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

This sounds odd. May I ask where your Roon server is installed ?

Also I have never ever myself been asked for a PW. Updates is  once or twice pr year and takes less than a minute.

 

I have a Roon rock core on a pc running on the same LAN (different room). I have not used it for a while, but found the Roon  client would ask for a login after a while. The server would have auto slept. My rendu I likely had turned off as not playing music for a bit. Hence, when in the mood I had to boot up, tinker around and never enough like an appliance. My own fault for not using it much, but just found it too much of a faff. 
 

As all my music is streamed from cloud services I generally prefer the Sonos approach where it’s always waiting and always quick. 

[m5sime]

10 hours ago, wklie said:

 

Lumin is using the official Spotify Connect implementation.  Therefore we are able to support Spotify Free accounts too, whereas the unofficial Open Source implementations do not.

 

You'll have to use Spotify app for general browsing and playback, although once started playing Spotify, you'll see some status of it in Lumin app in compliance with Spotify Connect guidelines.

 

As for native manufacturer app support for Spotify, I think that's deprecated.  I suspect this support may be dropped some day, as Spotify really wants users to use the Spotify app.

 

Hi Peter - thank you.. I have ordered a U1 Mini from Audiobarn for home trial and will see how I get on- Spotify using connect and Tidal via your app... I have a Mutec Mc3+USB between my current streamers and my Mytek DAC (AES into the DAC).. so will be seeing if the Mutec still has any value as a re-clocker. My gut feel is that the Mytek DAC is happier with AES in than USB in..

[m5sime]

4 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Possibly but that is quite dependent on the source as the two formats make very different demands of it.

Quite agree. With the LUMIN I will be able to test usb vs aes into the Mytek and compare. I also have a Mutec MC3+USB that I inserted into my USB streamer chain (Rendu). That did improve things. It also replaced the USB in for the Mytek as I took AES out of the Mutec device.. 

 

while subtle, my conclusion from tinkering over the years is that audio interfaces (AES) etc produce the best results and USB is one of those applied technologies to audio that is has plenty of catch-up to do in refinement (and more source dependant). 

[m5sime]

57 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

And my experience suggests the opposite, especially since it requires additional functions in the source device.  Can you tell us what your conclusion is based on?

Considerably less experience than your own! In that very limited experience, I have found the DACs that can interface with AES (and the right source) to sound more natural than those where they were using USB. So many variables and not a point I can defend, just a personal conclusion I have made. Just checking an aspect of your comment - my understanding is that USB inputs to a DAC mean the DAC is the bit master and pulls from the streamer/source. The opposite being true for AES/SPDIF etc. If this is correct, would USB not place more demands (additional functions in the source device) to your point?

[m5sime]

The LUMIN U1 Mini is arriving next week and I’ll be putting it through it’s paces and seeing if I have found the right match! Aurender was just too expensive a device for me. 

[m5sime]

12 minutes ago, RDSChicago said:

Kal or others, my listening is exclusively via Qobuz with a Lampizator Big 7 or Tubadour III SE DAC. No music files. No CD’s anymore. Since you’re saying USB is superior to SPDIF, am I better off continuing to stream through my MacBook Pro directly (or though an ifi Micro USB 3.0 with their Gemini USB cable) into the USB B input of the DAC vs. a music streamer such as Lumin or BlueSound via SPDIF? If so, this would be most convenient to me and avoid the necessity of purchasing a separate streamer. I’ve always been told to go the streamer route and would love to hear your recommendations. Thank you. 

Hi - I believe there is broad consensus that a dedicated streamer will always outperform a PC or Mac connected directly. It also makes control simpler in my view as I don’t want or have my home computer in the living room. 

 

[m5sime]

42 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Too general a statement, IMHO.

Probably 😂 I don’t recall seeing a reviewer of a streamer comparing with their laptop and saying the laptop was better.. hence the general opinion that dedicating streaming to an optimised device is more widely reported to be best. Perhaps a specific DAC is very agnostic of the source, but again from what I have read over the years, many are affected by streamer quality (hence ever more high end streamers exist, people modify power supplies, endless devices are available to ‘improve’ usb audio. 

[m5sime]

Update time: As some of you know I started this thread seeking a way of getting rid of Roon, Roon Core (Rock), Roon client and potentially also my Sonore MicroRendu. My goal was to have something as simple as Sonos ZP90 (cloud/app powered UX streamer). Your advice on here led me to look at options:

1. Auralic Aries G1 - great reviews for the App. Hardware looks good. On greater digging realising that Spotify is not embedded in the App (uses the connect path that Spotify seems to be pushing). That was an initial issue.. so I kept looking
2. Aurender - Strong positives from some of you.. Checked the pricing.. And er no.. Too expensive for my needs.
3. LUMIN - U1 Mini - seemed to be a nice price point (1700 quid or so), again app positive noises from you, they are active on the forums (Peter). Same setup as Auralic with the way Spotify works. I decided to ping the nice chaps at Audiobarn UK and got a paid loaner of a U1 Mini for test.

Conclusions - 

• Outclassed my Sonos ZP90 (no surprise there!)
• Stable operation. Minor crashes in the app.
• Using a cheapo USB cable and a broadcast grade v short AES/EBU XLR cable into my DAC I generally preferred the AES (confirming my assumption that AES sounds better into my DAC (Mytel Brooklyn)
• I then decided to try some HiFi USB cables - again a paid demo. AQ Carbon vs Chord Shawline vs Tellurium Q Black. I needed to concentrate when listening and when I tested using tracks with piano that differences were large! The TQ Black was the best overall by some margin (300 quid). The closest was then the AQ Carbon (feels much cheaper, bit stiff and connectors were a looser fit). The Chord didnt shine in my setup. 
• I did some more listening and preferred the USB vs AES now (using the TQ Black).. So that theory went..
• I then did some tests my bringing my Mutec MC3+USB into the loop.. USB into that and AES into my DAC.. - no real gain at least in the test system (which was a desktop setup vs my normal hifi setup - much easier for swapping cables and controlled listening). I will do more tests for the Mutec and see if this will bring enough to warrant being in the midst of my chain.
• The LUMIN U1 Mini - Nice solid device. Sound performance is excellent. Slight oddities:
  • On boot it says network error when in fact it is still booting-up and has a network connection (perhaps waiting for a DHCP lease). Could be masked for 20 secs to make a nicer boot sequence as the network issue isnt valid yet 
  • Didnt get tune-in to work.. Oddly asks for an account - pretty sure I can stream from tune in without an account.. 
  • Lovely feature of the Sonos on iOS - the standby screen/lock screen of the iPhone shows the track/artwork and a skip/pause button etc.. Nice feature to move a song on without unlocking the phone.. Requested consideration from Peter at LUMIN (but wasn't convinced). 
  • Committed the minor sin that many others have - connecting USB and AES/SPDIF from the U1 Mini at the same time (works OK, but had some odd issues with MQA lock up in AES mode).. I was A/B switching on my DAC to listen to the differences. Rightly told off by Peter that this is not supported as the USB mode has different timing for the data exchange (pull) vs the AES/SPDIF mode.. 
  • USB ports - generic label of 1 & 2 - no indication of in or out.. whether storage or DAC. Guess entirely flexible.. Did wonder if there was a better port for 'streaming to the DAC' and one for USB storage..
  • Testing was all TIDAL FLAC and Master MQA streaming (no local music)
  • Tested the Spotify Connect option - stable and quick (just select the LUMIN device as a speaker)
• Roon Core, Rendu, Linear PSU setup - all now spare. Not tested sound quality of the Rendu vs Lumin (and not interested to)
• LUMIN U1 Mini is a keeper - getting it in Black (demo model was brushed Aluminium)

Thanks for all your help with this thread and advice. I was originally thinking to get the Bluesound Node 2i.. Jack at Audiobarn didn't suggest it was an upgrade for me (not much better an experience than the Sonos (ease of use) and not enough of an upgrade in SQ.. Now that I am using USB into my DAC (I had not planned to end up there) I am glad I went with the LUMIN.. 

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

 

[m5sime]

4 minutes ago, RDSChicago said:

I’m having trouble getting tune-in on my X1 to work as well. Peter, can you advise? Thanks. 

The app seems to ask for a username but then does not provide a password box. I went and registered with TuneIn and hence was baffled that the App does not ask for the two fields.

[m5sime]

I forgot to add that the UI Mini can upsample audio feeds.. I only tried 44.1 KHz standard PCM from TIDAL (FLAC). It allows for 2x, 3x etc and also conversion to DSD.. When streaming into the Mytek DAC using USB (but again on amplified desktop hifi speakers) I could not hear any benefit. In fact in general, I thought the original sounded a teeny bit better. My DAC is pretty good by most standards, so expect this may have been less of an advantage to that DAC. I could not hear anything re DSD vs PCM either. Leaving that setting off.. Naturally the upper clock rates and DSD need the USB connection vs AES/SPDIF.

[m5sime]

12 hours ago, wklie said:

 

You have to have a (free) TuneIn account.  Please use a web browser or other means to add radio stations to TuneIn favorites.

 

In Lumin app, enter your TuneIn account name or e-mail.  Lumin can then retrieve your favorite TuneIn channels.

Confirmed working.. it is a bit confusing re the 'login' as there are no password fields.. Unless I had a radio station set to 'favourite' in the web app online, then LUMIN didn't do anything. Once I had a channel added, then it appeared with just the login username (email). TuneIn obviously allows favourites to be pulled without any authentication (which seems odd)..

[m5sime]

12 hours ago, wklie said:

 

1. If you're going to try AES or SPDIF, please use a cable no shorter than 1.5m

 

2. The network error is a DHCP timeout falsealarm.  In the next firmware we'll further increase it.  Apparently some network setups yield slower DHCP reply than our office environment.

 

Re 2. - Thank you! DHCP in a home setup can take a small amount of time..

Re 1. - mine is v short (12cm of cable).. Deliberately to remove cable effects.. What are the reasons for the 1.5M? I have read this somewhere else re SPDIF before. 

[m5sime]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This has been recommended to me by some of the best engineers in HiFi as well. 

Any details why? I read something around wavelengths of SPDIF signals. I assume if someone were designing a product for an internal linkage of SPDIF (and why would they), they would have low tx power for a v short distance. I wonder if some products prefer some attenuation? (not that 1.5M of decent spec 110 ohm AES cable has much loss)..