Popular Post Gavin1977 Posted November 14, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 14, 2020 Thought I would post this collection of notes as a mini-review. Please see my profile for full details of my system so you understand the basis of comparison - note that the T+A DAC 8 DSD that I own has been modified by Taiko Audio. It includes solid copper upper and lower plates (the upper plate has a small slither of panzerholz wood inserted), and new feet which also have panzerholz wood pucks. This gives it a slight advantage in terms of EMI shielding and vibration control over the stock model. T+A DAC 8 DSD has had numerous really good reviews when running DSD from HQPlayer... but the trouble is that people haven't really compared it to the current 'cream of the crop'. This lead me to investigate. Previous DACs that I have owned are Chord Hugo ->Naim DAC V1 -> Hugo 2 -> Hugo TT then the T+A DAC 8 DSD. Each one a noticeable step up from the former. I have also owned and used other DAC's outside of my main system. Straight off the bat both DACs sound completely right tonally and are not veiled or coloured. They both benefit from a good warm up time & being left on standby. Most DACs seem to benefit from this, probably due to internal clocks settling down. The top panel gets nice and enjoyably warm to the touch on the Tamaqui. The Tambaqui is as format agnostic as you could ever get. Should come as no surprise given how the Tambaqui works, with PCM and DSD playing equally well. The T+A however needs DSD to sound it's best, from recollection I would say that PCM via the T+A sounds of a similar level of reproduction as a Hugo TT. Very impressive that the Tambaqui retrieves the information it does from PCM, whereas T+A needs DSD and HQPlayer to reach the same level. Mola Mola Tambaqui removes that last bit of timing smear. It has extremely well honed timing. This is the most impressive thing about the Mola Mola compared to the T+A and it is the main difference in my opinion. Cymbals, drums everything stops and starts on a heartbeat and I think this is part of the reason why micro details are easier to hear. However don’t think that it’s a ‘night and day’ difference (John Darko loves that expression), it’s not - in other words don’t go about expecting to discover new things that you’ve never heard before in your favourite music. The Tamaqui just presents them with somewhat better timing compared to the T+A. My impression is also that listener fatigue is further reduced with the Tamaqui as a result of this exceptional timing - if I was an audio engineer I would prefer it over the T+A. You just don’t have to work hard at all to dissect music. Both the T+A and Tambaqui have ‘presence’... things sound more realistic than other lesser DAC’s I’ve heard. To be fair my experience with other DACs is somewhat limited, but I can tell you that the Chord Hugo 2 or TT don't have this same ‘Presence’ (I have never heard a Chord Dave in case you were wondering). Seems to take something special / high end to deliver this. The concept of ’presence’ is something that is not easy to understand until you have actually heard what a DAC of this caliber can do. One theory I have is that the quality of the analogue conversion stage from the DAC to the amplifiers may play a role in providing ‘Presence’ compared to lesser DAC’s with cheaper/less optimised volume control built in. I would be very interested to hear how, say, a Chord qutest combined with a high quality preamp would perform... might narrow the gap a bit, but I suspect not quite upto the level we're talking about here. Both DACs have a well proportioned and vast soundstage compared to lower end DACs. Initially you would think that the T+A had the larger soundstage in all dimensions, however that's not completely right. Music is more tightly focused towards the middle/the listener on the Mola Mola. This is actually because the Tambaqui has better timing and as a result produces a more defined soundstage image with excellent delineation between instruments. So it's actually just as wide/tall, but instruments are more narrowly focused within that soundstage. With the T+A the soundstage envelops you more because the imaging is just a smidge more diffuse, the Mola Mola places the soundstage in front of you because it has better timing. Both very enjoyable, but different enough for the differences to be discernible. Since sending upscaled DSD to Mola Mola seemed to make no appreciable difference, there was no real reason to use HQPlayer embedded, so I swapped over to Euphony. With my older Hugo TT Euphony (playing Tidal via Stylus) brought out the best with PCM based dac’s. How did this compare with the inbuilt Roon endpoint? Not much in it to be honest. I would actually give a slight nod to the inbuilt Roon endpoint in the Tambaqui. Removing all the extra components of a music server, and even a Sablon 2020 USB, seems to add an extra little dose of vividity and clarity. What... Roon actually sounds good I here you say! I would be perfectly happy with the inbuilt Roon endpoint in the Mola Mola. The value proposition.... To quote John Darko (who’s comparisons I have found to be very reliable) from his Mola Mola Tambaqui review: “Apple MacBook Pro’s internal DAC at 4/10, the Schiit Modi 3 at 5/10, the AudioQuest DragonFly Red at 6/10, the Chord Qutest at 7/10 (where I think diminishing returns really begin to accelerate), the Denafrips Terminator at 7.5/10 or the Mola Mola Tambaqui at 8/10.” T+A DAC 8 DSD fed 256 DSD from a good quality server running HQPlayer... sound quality must be at least 7.5. Mind you the T+A has a certain swagger and swing to it’s presentation. Maybe I should add an extra point.... ? I think you get the picture - very close, both the Tambaqui and the T+A DAC 8 DSD are extremely well engineered products. Mola Mola is an engineering triumph (no surprise there from Bruno) - one complete great sounding DAC/Roon endpoint in a small & tidy package. T+A DAC 8 DSD is very close sonically, but needs time and expenditure building a music server able to run HQPlayer sufficiently well - the T+A offers better value if you are prepared to do this and put up with extra cables/boxes. As well as John Darko's review, my impressions also seem to match Stereophiles present fall 2020 'Reference Recommended' list. T+A DAC 8 DSD remaining in the A* category - it provides a further reference point of comparison since nobody can ever hope to hear all of the DAC's available. I may consider listening to the Benchmark DAC3 at some point. guiltyboxswapper, Solstice380, Holzohr and 6 others 1 4 4 Link to comment
fds Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Many thanks Gavin for this excellent review. Highly appreciated. Would be great to get similarly explicit reports on comparisons of the DAC8DSD to the Holo Audio May or to Chord Dave. In fact, I have plans to demo the DAC8DSD in comparison to Chord TT2 soon and maybe even the May. Let’s see. May I ask about your HQP settings? Did you also try DSD512? In my early experiences with HQP, sinc-L, sinc-M and closed-form-16M are timing champions. If you have not used them already, they may narrow the gap further. Also wondering whether you had upsampled PCM before sending it to the Tambaqui ... if so, you might want to share these settings as well. Also DAVE I expect to come with better timing than the DAC8DSD. Already with my Mojo I experience excellent timing but not the presence/physicality that my Metric Halo LIO-8 offers. Still cannot believe that T+A was not able to bring regular XLR outputs to their new “flagship” headphone DAC HA 200 ... I guess this will be postponed to the successor of the DAC8DSD. Still this will lead to siginificantly less demand on the 200 I believe. Thanks again for this great review stressing that value-for-money seems to be strong in the DAC8DSD. :-) Gavin1977 1 Apple Powerbook G4 15\", iTunes, Metric Halo LIO-8, active speakers Link to comment
fds Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Oh and did you use both direct to power amp? Not fully clear to me from your audio system description? ... and maybe an Innuos Phoenix could improve the timing of the DAC8DSD even further??? Apple Powerbook G4 15\", iTunes, Metric Halo LIO-8, active speakers Link to comment
guiltyboxswapper Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, fds said: Also DAVE I expect to come with better timing than the DAC8DSD. Not what I found, and I had the DAVE around twice (!). fds 1 Link to comment
fds Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Not sure if the Tambaqui is still with @Gavin1977 ... Is so, maybe it will be worth trying to feed it PCM upsampled to the max the Tambaqui can take with sinc-L and LNS15. This may widen the gap a bit more?? (Here with my Metic Halo LIO-8 the use of sinc-L with NS9 at 176.4kHz brings it from a 6.2/10 to a 6.8/10.) Apple Powerbook G4 15\", iTunes, Metric Halo LIO-8, active speakers Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 hour ago, fds said: Oh and did you use both direct to power amp? Not fully clear to me from your audio system description? ... and maybe an Innuos Phoenix could improve the timing of the DAC8DSD even further??? I use JCAT USB XE, so no Phoenix needed. Both DAC's where attached directly to power amps (but they have to go through ASP in my case, see my system description in my profile) You can hear the subtle differences in feeding the Tambaqui pcm or dsd. Classical differences that people report across any dac that they can hear between the two formats, such as PCM have more drive and DSD having a better flow. Using different upsampling settings in HQ Player does slightly change the character, for example if you like the sound of Sinc-m or XTR, it will impart that slight flavour to it. But you don't really extract more detail. I assessed this very briefly and moved on. The Tambaqui extracts so much detail from pcm that I don't think you can gain anything much from HQPlayer. Besides all of my files are pcm anyway, I only use HQPlayer to get the same effect on the T+A. Your mileage may vary. Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 47 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said: I use JCAT USB XE, so no Phoenix needed. Both DAC's where attached directly to power amps (but they have to go through ASP in my case, see my system description in my profile) One thing that might benefit my setup though is powering the JCAT USB XE in my music server with an MPAudio, Sean Jacobs or Paul Hynes. I’m only using a Allo Nirvana SMPS at the moment, so there is scope for improvement there. This is something on my to do list. Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 2 hours ago, fds said: Many thanks Gavin for this excellent review. Highly appreciated. Would be great to get similarly explicit reports on comparisons of the DAC8DSD to the Holo Audio May or to Chord Dave. In fact, I have plans to demo the DAC8DSD in comparison to Chord TT2 soon and maybe even the May. Let’s see. May I ask about your HQP settings? Did you also try DSD512? In my early experiences with HQP, sinc-L, sinc-M and closed-form-16M are timing champions. If you have not used them already, they may narrow the gap further. Also wondering whether you had upsampled PCM before sending it to the Tambaqui ... if so, you might want to share these settings as well. Also DAVE I expect to come with better timing than the DAC8DSD. Already with my Mojo I experience excellent timing but not the presence/physicality that my Metric Halo LIO-8 offers. Still cannot believe that T+A was not able to bring regular XLR outputs to their new “flagship” headphone DAC HA 200 ... I guess this will be postponed to the successor of the DAC8DSD. Still this will lead to siginificantly less demand on the 200 I believe. Thanks again for this great review stressing that value-for-money seems to be strong in the DAC8DSD. :-) Post your feedback on the Hugo TT2 here - would be interesting. Link to comment
Popular Post shahed99 Posted November 14, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 14, 2020 Excellent review! Thanks for sharing. I’d like to mention that the volume control section of the T+A DAC8 is its weakest link. I’ve tried several preamps and compared power amp direct using T+A variable out. The sound quality degradation using T+A volume control was significantly! Also, DSD 512 sounded quite a better than DSD256. But that was using non-EC HQP filter. guiltyboxswapper, emcdade, fds and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 Thanks - on my radar to try using volume control within HQPlayer. But I must admit I’m a fan of hardware volume control. Link to comment
fds Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 @Gavin1977Now will you get the Tambaqui as a successor of your DAC8DSD? Have you decided already? Apple Powerbook G4 15\", iTunes, Metric Halo LIO-8, active speakers Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 You could view Tambaqui as a successor. But I have some other tweaks to try - I think PSU upgrades to my music server and JCAT USB XE Card till help with better timing and imaging through the T+A DAC 8 DSD. As I allude in my review, in my setup the T+A DAC 8 DSD is competitive. Link to comment
fds Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Thanks @Gavin1977. Indeed, I had understood that you find the DAC8DSD competitive ... but maybe due to the little uptick in timing I was still wondering. Good luck with your other tweaks! Gavin1977 1 Apple Powerbook G4 15\", iTunes, Metric Halo LIO-8, active speakers Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 By the way, I haven't tried many DAC's that have a built in Roon end-point, but what the Mola Mola does with Roon is amazing - I have not been able to recreate it using any of my other equipment (past or present). I've just tried a comparison on my T+A DAC using local CD rips: Config A: Minimserver on Synology server -> Linn Kazoo -> HQPlayer embedded Config B: Roon Core on Synology Server -> Linn Kazoo->HQPlayer embedded Config A is better, noise floor on Config B is higher and the music is feels more compressed. It's sufficient so that I would choose not to use Roon based on this. This doesn't happen on the Mola Mola - Roon sounds excellent. Link to comment
yyz Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Great review. I would be very interested to hear your comparison with the Benchmark DAC3B and the Mola Mola Tambaqui. I was all set on getting the Makua with DAC or to a lesser degree the Tambaqui. However, I thought the Benchmark LA4 or HPA4 preamp would be similar to the Makua preamp, maybe even better sounding than the Makua, at $2.5K vs $12K+ just for the preamp functionality. Adding the internal Tambaqui based digital conversion card to the Makua brings it up to $20K. Some people think this sounds better than the external Tambaqui DAC. What I am hearing from the Benchmark HPA4 preamp seems like a world beater to me. Adding the DAC3B makes me feel like I am not missing much. I have heard the DAC3 HGC with other preamps and direct to amp (AHB2) and it is not as good as adding the HPA4 or LA4 preamp. A lot of people are posting these same findings as me along with audio reviewers. So if you do compare the Tambaqui to the DAC3 I would recommend you hook up the Benchmark DAC3B ($1700) to the LA4 ($2500) . I think this is the way to get the best performance from the DAC3 lineup of DACs. Gavin1977 1 Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 I think you're spot on the money - one thing that concerns me about the DAC3 is that it's soundstage is reported as being potentially smaller than some of the 'uber' DACs. Can you describe more what that HPA4/LA4 preamp adds (especially in terms of soundstage)? I also want to try the Okto Research DAC. Link to comment
yyz Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 I think that smaller soundstage maybe correct on the DAC3 lineup. I do not have the proper speakers to be confident on that statement. However, when I listened with my KEF LS50's + DAC3 the sound stage was filled in and extended only a little beyond the sides. My best recording is DSOTM on SACD. Playing that on my modified Sony SCD-1 has a bigger sound stage. Though the DAC3 has a more clear and detailed sound. In this specific example I preferred the SCD-1. In about 2 weeks I will have new drivers installed on my recently purchased Thiel CS3.7. That full range speaker will give me a better way to evaluate the DAC3 soundstage (with more bass). I have the HPA4 preamp and what that brings to the table is an incredible volume control and total silence that you can hear. I used to own the DAC3 HGC (and DAC2 HGC). I went direct to my AHB2 amp with the HGC units and it was OK, not so good at low volume, the sound collapses. Now adding the incredibly quiet HPA4 preamp into the mix with the DAC3B (same as the DAC3 HGC minus volume control) caused the sound to be the same at all volume levels. That is the sound is not collapsed. All the frequency range is there but just quieter at lower volume. I have the Meze Empy headphone with a great XLR cable and it is great for late night listening as I work. However recently, when I got the Thiel CS3.7 (albeit with a damaged driver), I have just listened late at night on 2 channel (no headphones) at very low volume. The sound has lost nothing other than volume so I can still enjoy the music. I think that is an incredible world beater type performance. I should add that the HPA4 does not add or subtract from the source. I think the incredible SNR is responsible for my perception of this. One thing that makes me subconsciously love the DAC3 is the price to performance ratio. So for me that $1700 DAC3B goes a long way with the HPA4. I think the HPA4 is the best component I have owned since it brings out the best in the sources connected to it. My Sony SCD-1 has never sounded as good as it does now. It took me 20 years to get that player to sound like it does now. Gavin1977 1 Link to comment
Popular Post eternaloptimist Posted November 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2020 I have a Chord Hugo TT2 and a T+A DAC8 DSD.... I bought the TT2 when the power supply on the T+A DAC8 died a couple of months ago. Will finally get the repaired and serviced unit back from T+A Germany (!) this coming Friday. The T+A DAC8 DSD is a lovely, lovely DAC - either PCM or DSD. I bought it within 6 months or release. I tend to feed it DSD from Roon or HQPlayer+Roon if listening to high quality recordings. However, I find the TT2 a little "sweeter". It seems less "fussy" with what its fed. Following a lot of experimentation, I now stick with PCM and the Chord filters. A bonus is less processing "overhead" when running Audiolense room correction filters (this is amazing software!) as no DSD conversion required. Don't forget... the TT2 is significantly more expensive than the T+A DAC8 DSD. It is likely that I will sell the T+A DAC 8 DSD (part of the agreement with my wife when buying the TT2 - given the cost!). I am not sure of the level of interest, though. Just my 2 cents. Gavin1977 and fds 2 Roon / JRiver with Audiolense XO -> Chord Hugo TT2 -> Cyrus Mono x200 Signatures -> Audiovector Si3 Avantgarde Arretes Link to comment
Popular Post Gavin1977 Posted November 23, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2020 Great feedback @yyz and @eternaloptimist! Thing about the T+A DAC 8 DSD it that the DSD section does scale with source... all the way up to a Taiko Audio Extreme. I would really appreciate your further feedback once your new speakers and repaired T+A return. Really to get the best out of T+A DAC 8 you need HQPlayer upsampling... eternaloptimist and emcdade 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Stereophilus Posted November 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 26, 2020 On 11/23/2020 at 6:03 PM, yyz said: Great review. I would be very interested to hear your comparison with the Benchmark DAC3B and the Mola Mola Tambaqui. I was all set on getting the Makua with DAC or to a lesser degree the Tambaqui. However, I thought the Benchmark LA4 or HPA4 preamp would be similar to the Makua preamp, maybe even better sounding than the Makua, at $2.5K vs $12K+ just for the preamp functionality. Adding the internal Tambaqui based digital conversion card to the Makua brings it up to $20K. Some people think this sounds better than the external Tambaqui DAC. What I am hearing from the Benchmark HPA4 preamp seems like a world beater to me. Adding the DAC3B makes me feel like I am not missing much. I have heard the DAC3 HGC with other preamps and direct to amp (AHB2) and it is not as good as adding the HPA4 or LA4 preamp. A lot of people are posting these same findings as me along with audio reviewers. So if you do compare the Tambaqui to the DAC3 I would recommend you hook up the Benchmark DAC3B ($1700) to the LA4 ($2500) . I think this is the way to get the best performance from the DAC3 lineup of DACs. Benchmark make great gear at a great price. I think the HPA4 is a superb buy. I haven’t heard it back to back against my Makua, but I doubt it would be much different. The DAC3B is tonally quite neutral and very detailed. When compared on the Makua I didn’t think it reproduced depth layering or soundstage to the same degree as the internal Makua DAC, but this did include an extra set of interconnects for the DAC3B to connect to Makua. Whether this difference is apparent to you or important to you depends on the rest of your system and the music you listen to. For instance, if you use headphones for listening, the DAC3B is probably all you will need. yyz and Gavin1977 2 Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 9 minutes ago, Stereophilus said: Benchmark make great gear at a great price. I think the HPA4 is a superb buy. I haven’t heard it back to back against my Makua, but I doubt it would be much different. The DAC3B is tonally quite neutral and very detailed. When compared on the Makua I didn’t think it reproduced depth layering or soundstage to the same degree as the internal Makua DAC, but this did include an extra set of interconnects for the DAC3B to connect to Makua. Whether this difference is apparent to you or important to you depends on the rest of your system and the music you listen to. For instance, if you use headphones for listening, the DAC3B is probably all you will need. Seems to be common feedback on soundstage and the DAC3B... (you may have guessed that I'm a soundstage nut!). Would be interesting what the HPA4 adds to the mix. I really must try one at some point. By the way, Chord DAVE and Innuos Phoenix on demo here at the moment - I will post back comparisons in the next few days. For anyone else who has heard this combination, the T+A DAC 8 DSD has an equivalent soundstage to the DAVE, but the T+A has a much more 'forward' presentation, everything is presented is a much larger/richer fashion. Does anyone have the better terminology to describe the sound of the T+A? I find it difficult to write down the differences I hear and the idea of 'forward' sounding is likely a key difference. I'm not aware of any videos comparing laid-back vs forward sounding dacs. fds 1 Link to comment
fds Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Very interesting. Looking forward to hear more about your DAC8DSD comparisons with DAVE. Also interesting will be to hear about the impact of the Phoenix on the DAC8DSD. Apple Powerbook G4 15\", iTunes, Metric Halo LIO-8, active speakers Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted December 1, 2020 Author Share Posted December 1, 2020 Feedback on Chord DAVE will have to wait, but I can give feedback on these: Innuos Phoenix vs JCAT USB XE: Phoenix provides increased soundstage depth and there is a lovely delicacy to the tone which is introduced. However, I am powering my JCAT USB XE with an Allo Nirvana SMPS... I strongly suspect that powering the JCAT XE with a better quality linear would have the same effect. So case closed on that one. @eternaloptimist any feedback on Chord Hugo TT2 and a T+A DAC8 DSD? My understanding is that with the Chord TT2 the mids, including vocals, are bit more forward compared to the DAVE - this might mean that the voicing of the TT2 is closer to the T+A than what the Chord DAVE is. fds 1 Link to comment
eternaloptimist Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 @Gavin1977. Sorry, has been crazy busy here.... haven't had a chance to do a direct comparison of the Hugo TT2 and T+A DAC8 DSD. Will likely set up in the new year when the rest of the family are away for a week! Gavin1977 1 Roon / JRiver with Audiolense XO -> Chord Hugo TT2 -> Cyrus Mono x200 Signatures -> Audiovector Si3 Avantgarde Arretes Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 4 hours ago, eternaloptimist said: @Gavin1977. Sorry, has been crazy busy here.... haven't had a chance to do a direct comparison of the Hugo TT2 and T+A DAC8 DSD. Will likely set up in the new year when the rest of the family are away for a week! No worries - same here, still got the DAVE around my house and have only listened to 2 hours of music in the week. I'll be interested in how warm the TT2 sounds compared to the T+A and also if the TT2 has the same forward presence. Two weeks off at Christmas 😀 Link to comment
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