Kal Rubinson Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 9 hours ago, Desertpilot said: I may have to indulge in the "switcher" box to go direct DAC to Amplifier. Only needed if you have sources than do not go through the s88. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Steve Bruzonsky Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 On 4/28/2021 at 7:41 AM, Desertpilot said: Maybe some dumb questions, but here goes. I just ordered a pair of high end speakers in the $4,500 each range (will be stereo initially but later multichannel). My understanding is that they are very resolving so I should clean up my system to make sure quality music is sent to my speakers. Currently, classical and jazz/blues music (mostly DSD256, DSD64 and 24/192) is stored on my QNAP NAS. I use JRiver on my homebuilt computer to access music files, convert to PCM 24/192, and send it via HDMI (NVidia video card) to Marantz AV8805. The Marantz does the digital to analog conversion and sends the analog signal to my amplifier, Parasound Halo A52+. In my current multichannel system my speakers (about $500 each, designed for home theater) do not resolve well enough to hear any problems. But, my new speakers may demand better. As I understand it, I should use the Exasound asio driver and via USB send the file from my computer to the S88. Correct? The S88 takes the file and does "magic" to make sure it is "perfect". Computers, theoretically, are messy (distortion, clock problems, etc.). The S88 cleans all that up? The S88 also converts DSD to analog which I will send to the Marantz (not my amplifier). I would also benefit from the S88's ability to convert DSD to analog? Lastly, does the S88 DAC also function as a so-called network bridge? Thank you very much. Marcus Las Vegas, NV Although I have a Marantz SSP in my family room system, I AM NOT routing s88 multi-channel audio through the SSP. NO THANK YOU! I am waiting for a cable from ProAudioLA and then I will try using my Coleman 7.1SW Channel switcher. Meanwhile, I have the s88 connected direct to my 3 PS Audio Stellar M1200 and 2 PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblocks. If you route through the Marantz you will get the sonic character and limited DA conversion of the Marantz, you do not want this with the stellar s88 DAC. Also,HDMI is a relatively poor jittery digital transfer which I know from experience. I use the s88 as a ROON Ready via ethernet from my Exasound Delta ROON Core also connected via ethernet. High quality audio transfer without excess jitter you get via HDMI! Also, although I have used ROON to upsample, using DSD512 for 2ch and DSD256 for multi-channel, I consistently find it doesn't sound better - perhaps loses just a tad of edginess that I like - by upsampling. Can you listen to the s88 straight to your amplifier(s)? DO this for a time and you won't want to go back to using the Marantz. Link to comment
Steve Bruzonsky Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Kal, great review in Stereophile on the NAD stereo 298 (?) amp, used in your multi-channel system. Loved how you compared using it in bridged mode to PS Audio P1200 monoblocks, as I luv mine. I also in my basement system have a NAD M28 7 channel amp with the Purefi modules and like it! Link to comment
Desertpilot Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 George at exaSound helped me resolve my issue. It is entirely related to JRiver and the Windows ASIO installation. All fixed now. In TOOLS - OPTIONS - AUDIO - DSP & output format, select 5.1 in the CHANNELS drop down (for multichannel, of course). I followed their installation diagram which showed selecting "source number of channels". George is going to update the installation file. What happened? When I played any 5 channel (5.0) PCM file (of which I have many), the S88 mapped one of the surround channels to my subwoofer. All other files (DSD and 6 channel (5.1) PCM) were mapped correctly. After I switched to 5.1 in the channels drop down, my 5 channel (5.0) files were then mapped correctly to my speakers. Just one of those weird things. I think I will try going direct to my amplifier to check it out. Although the Marantz pre/pro automatically selects "pure" output when receiving an analog signal. Pure means all pre/pro processing is suspended and the analog signal goes direct to the amplifier. That's all for now. Lots of listening to do as I evaluate the S88. Marcus Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Desertpilot said: I followed their installation diagram which showed selecting "source number of channels". I never use "source number of channels" except by accident. Desertpilot 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Desertpilot said: Pure means all pre/pro processing is suspended and the analog signal goes direct to the amplifier. Not quite. It goes through the Marantz volume control and output modules. Desertpilot 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Desertpilot Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 This explanation is for JRiver users only. My email to George at exaSound this morning: Good morning George, There is no need for further fixes. This is a JRiver thing. But, here are my results: After changing the number of channels in JRiver DSP settings to 5.1, the S88 channel mapping is now correct. But, there is a catch (lol). -- All PCM 2.0 & 5.0 files are converted by JRiver to 5.1 and then sent to the S88. Channel mapping is correct. -- DSD (2.0, 5.0, 5.1) files are sent to the S88 with no changes. Channel mapping is correct. Thus, for example, DSD 2.0 files remain 2.0 and utilize my Left/Right speakers only. I do not mind this PCM conversion to 5.1 as I always used this option prior to installing the S88. I prefer multichannel and I liked having JRiver convert all my CDs (typically FLAC) to 5.1 channels. Of course, I always have the option to change JRiver DSP settings to 2.0 channels. This would result in all PCM files being converted to 2.0. I never use this option, but I know it’s there. I hope my explanation makes sense to you. Thank you very much for your quick solution. Marcus Link to comment
Desertpilot Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 I researched the Coleman 7.1SW Channel switcher. It shows a DB25 connector on the back panel.. Am I looking at the correct item? I checked Amazon and they offer DB25 to XLR Female. Is this the correct choice? Super appreciate your help. Marcus Link to comment
ted_b Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 Yes, the 7.1SW uses DB25 connectors; their a/b5.1 (which I own, bought on Ebay for $99) uses 1/4" TRS. I like the a/b5.1 for two reasons: 1) I only have 6 channels to switch, and 2) the individual 1/4" TRS connectors allow me to use different lengths for each channel, as my rear surrounds require a 40 ft run (through in-wall smurf tubes) while the fronts only need a fraction of that. Maybe Redco or Pro Audio LA could customize a db25 snake with different lengths too, I do not know. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 23 hours ago, Desertpilot said: I do not mind this PCM conversion to 5.1 as I always used this option prior to installing the S88. I prefer multichannel and I liked having JRiver convert all my CDs (typically FLAC) to 5.1 channels. I do not understand what you are describing. AFAIK, setting the output to 5.1 should never do any conversion or up-mixing. All it forces is a remapping of the source number of channels into the 5.1 package. In my experience, this re-mapping is almost always correct and there is never a conversion. If you are experiencing something else, such as up-mixing, you have other settings involved somewhere. 23 hours ago, Desertpilot said: Channel mapping is correct. That's all you need, right? Desertpilot 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Desertpilot said: I researched the Coleman 7.1SW Channel switcher. It shows a DB25 connector on the back panel.. Am I looking at the correct item? I checked Amazon and they offer DB25 to XLR Female. Is this the correct choice? Yes. There are many sources for such cables. I use Seismic Audio. Desertpilot 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
exa Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said: I do not understand what you are describing. AFAIK, setting the output to 5.1 should never do any conversion or up-mixing. All it forces is a remapping of the source number of channels into the 5.1 package. In my experience, this re-mapping is almost always correct and there is never a conversion. If you are experiencing something else, such as up-mixing, you have other settings involved somewhere. That's all you need, right? Hi Kal, In my experience selecting anything different than "Source number of channels" in the JRiver DSP Studio causes up-conversion. It is visible in the signal path. I asked JRiver several times about it and never got an answer. I haven't found what causes it, so in the jRiver tutorial we recommended using "Source number of channels". Any ideas what is causing it? Below is a screenshot of DSP Studio causing up-conversion. exaSound.com Link to comment
Desertpilot Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 Just to be clear, the JRiver 5.1 setting applies to PCM files only. Changing the setting to 5.1 did result in correct channel mapping for PCM files. However, it also changed 2 channel stereo files in to 5.1 multichannel files. It does not affect DSD files at all. Marcus Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 2 hours ago, exa said: Hi Kal, In my experience selecting anything different than "Source number of channels" in the JRiver DSP Studio causes up-conversion. It is visible in the signal path. I asked JRiver several times about it and never got an answer. I haven't found what causes it, so in the jRiver tutorial we recommended using "Source number of channels". Any ideas what is causing it? Hi George- It may be semantics. There are many external programs for audio formatting that will do channel remapping without changing any of the content/format/structure of the individual channels. It is conceivable that one can call this a "conversion" since the source file is, say, FR/FL/SR/SL in 16/48 while the output file is FR/FL/_/_/SR/SL in a 5.1 (6channel) file. But, if all the active channels are still in their original 16/48, isn't that just a remapping and what Jriver is doing in real time? When I do this in Jriver the results suggest this so but I have no insight into the actual process. In your screen grab, the only content that is explicitly converted is content <44.1kHz material. Note that, just below the selection for output channels, there's another check-box for "No upmixing or downmixing" further suggesting is just a re-mapping. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 52 minutes ago, Desertpilot said: However, it also changed 2 channel stereo files in to 5.1 multichannel files. What are you saying? When this occurs and you play the 5.1 files, how many speakers are making sound? When I do this, only the original R/L signals play through the FR/FL speakers and the rest of the speakers are silent. If you are getting any output from any other speakers, you have made other settings to "upmix" the source. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
exa Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 When I play stereo PCM with the DSP Setting as shown on the screenshot above, I get sound only from the outputs 1 and 2 of the s88 DAC. This is L/R channels and it is all good. The strange thing is the Signal Path window shows conversion from 2 to 6 channels. I guess we can disregard it. exaSound.com Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, exa said: When I play stereo PCM with the DSP Setting as shown on the screenshot above, I get sound only from the outputs 1 and 2 of the s88 DAC. This is L/R channels and it is all good. The strange thing is the Signal Path window shows conversion from 2 to 6 channels. I guess we can disregard it. I think so as I have the same results. Unless upmixing/downmixing is invoked, there is only remapping. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Desertpilot Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 You are correct. My apologies for bringing this up. I saw the change from 2.0 to 5.1 and just accepted it. I just played a 2.0 PCM file and walked around listening to all speakers and only the left & right speakers are playing music. WOW! Big error on my part. Marcus Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 32 minutes ago, Desertpilot said: You are correct. My apologies for bringing this up. I saw the change from 2.0 to 5.1 and just accepted it. I just played a 2.0 PCM file and walked around listening to all speakers and only the left & right speakers are playing music. That is another semantic ambiguity from Jriver . What Jriver is doing, quite properly, is repackaging the 2 channels into a 5.1 channel output but without conversion or upmixing. Desertpilot 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Popular Post ted_b Posted May 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2021 Kal and I (and others on AS, I assume) are pretty active on a multichannel forum called QuadraphonicQuad.com, and on there is a member who has put together a very nice free set of tools called Music Media Helper (MMH). One of it's swiss army knife capabilities is a channel remapper that is visual in nature. I guess if you have several albums that are not getting mapped right, I'd do them offline with this tool, and avoid any JRiver DSP. My $.02 https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/music-media-helper-useful-tools-for-music-videos-mch-audio.22693/ Desertpilot and Kal Rubinson 2 "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Desertpilot Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said: That is another semantic ambiguity from Jriver . What Jriver is doing, quite properly, is repackaging the 2 channels into a 5.1 channel output but without conversion or upmixing. Thank you Kal for your gracious response. I feel poorly for even bringing it up. But, now we (and exaSound) knows the truth of the matter. Marcus Link to comment
Steve Bruzonsky Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 Finally I got my DB-25 to XLR cables from ProAudioLA, and I've got - multi-channel sound. I hear no dropoff from using the Coleman 7.1SW switcher at all. Thanks for the tip Kal!!! Desertpilot 1 Link to comment
Steve Bruzonsky Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 My s88 system is finally done and tweaked! Bruzer Family Room Totem Acoustic/PS Audio/Exasound Music & Video System! | AVS Forum Desertpilot 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Desertpilot Posted June 9, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 9, 2021 I feel good about integrating the S88 in to my system. It did take a moment to figure everything out but now it satisfies music DAC duties beautifully and easily moves out of the way with just a few switch actions so I can play "ripped" Blu-ray and 4K videos. Since I'm retired, I have worked the S88 hard with music these past couple of weeks. All multichannel. For the first time, I played a DXD (24/352.8) file. Worked beautifully. Brahms: (Fischer) Symphony No. 3; Serenade No. 2, downloaded from Native DSD yesterday. I've also played plenty of DSD files. All of the Van Baerle Trio albums to hear especially the piano. Berlioz: (Rattle and LSO) La Damnation de Faust for vocals. Paganini: 24 Caprices + 1 (Ning Feng) for violin. and finally, Arvo Pärt's Stabat Mater with Gloriæ Dei Cantores for choir. The S88 provided excellent sonics. In my opinion, if the sound, any sound, is in the files, the S88 sends it to your speakers. In a couple of instances, instruments I had never heard before could now be heard. I hope others who have purchased this DAC feel the same way. Marcus QNAP NAS to Windows 10 PC then AudioQuest Cinnamon USB to S88 then Bluejeans Audio cables to Marantz AV8805 (7.1 channel in). XLR to Parasound A52+ amplifier. Bluejeans 12 gauge speaker cable to Spatial Audio Lab X3 speakers. Steve Bruzonsky and Kal Rubinson 2 Link to comment
jrobbins50 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 @Kal Rubinson and @Steve Bruzonsky, I have a Coleman 7.1sw on the way along with a boatload of ProAudioLA DB25 cables. For two channel sources, I have been using bass management crossovers in the Marantz AV-8802A but running those Marantz inputs on Pure Direct. Going forward, do I need to set up the bass management in Roon if I am bypassing the Marantz entirely? Could one of you share a screenshot of how you have it set up? For the Okto dac8pro MCH, I've used the bass management functionality within Audiolense when creating convolution filters for Roon/HQP use. Should I be able to do the same going forward bypassing the Marantz, as the Marantz MCH inputs are the 7.1 analog ones that don't apply any bass management to begin with? Perhaps asking the obvious, but I assume that all volume control is DSP in Roon when using the straight from Coleman to amps approach? Thanks for the guidance. Cheers. JCR Link to comment
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