"Book shelf" speakers put on speaker stands = less bass??

[992Sam]

Ok, so I have noticed that ever since I put my XR50's up from the 3" stands they were on before (effectively at floor level) to my 2.5' tall stands (they are a solidsteel,  high quality stand)... I am getting a bit less bass... not bad bass per se, but not as good as it was when they sat nearly on the floor.

 

Carpeted smallish room, speaker distance from the wall hasn't changed, and the speaker stands are on spikes that are pushed all the way thru the carpet onto the concrete below. 

 

Any ideas on why this counter intuitive situation could be happening?  

[botrytis]

It is not counter intuitive. You are actually enhancing the bass with the speaker near the floor. The same thing happens when you put it close to a corner or a back wall. It can over emphasize the bass, meaning not as accurate.

[fas42]

Speakers on stands are less stable - the simple exercise of pushing lightly on the side of the speaker while mounted on the stands shows how precarious it is; close to zero resistance to wobbling around, from the slightest nudge. From experience, the best solution is do something which gives the speaker cabinet enormous effective mass - imagine creating a pillar of several tonnes, and concreting the cabinet to that pillar; no need to actually do that 😉, but the closer you effectively get to that situation, the better.

 

So what do you get doing that? "Big" sound, very authoritative, meaning not boomy, bass, high levels of detail - provided the replay chain is clean, it's a win in every area.

[botrytis]

11 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Speakers on stands are less stable - the simple exercise of pushing lightly on the side of the speaker while mounted on the stands shows how precarious it is; close to zero resistance to wobbling around, from the slightest nudge. From experience, the best solution is do something which gives the speaker cabinet enormous effective mass - imagine creating a pillar of several tonnes, and concreting the cabinet to that pillar; no need to actually do that 😉, but the closer you effectively get to that situation, the better.

 

So what do you get doing that? "Big" sound, very authoritative, meaning not boomy, bass, high levels of detail - provided the replay chain is clean, it's a win in every area.

 

Not if the stands are designed properly and weighted. If not then well, it is a crap shoot. There is a lot of nonsense in your statements.

 

I mean, I don't put stacks of papers on mine, talk about unstable.

 

[992Sam]

Just now, botrytis said:

 

Not if the stands are designed properly and weighted. If not then well, it is a crap shoot.

 

yeah it's not a quality problem with the stands ... it's just the laws of physics and I got used to listening to them close to the floor for 2 months, but with the delivery of the stands yesterday, the sound / tone has shifted to a more balanced tone (As the tweeters and mids are more ear level now)... and this the impression of less bass... 

[botrytis]

2 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

 

yeah it's not a quality problem with the stands ... it's just the laws of physics and I got used to listening to them close to the floor for 2 months, but with the delivery of the stands yesterday, the sound / tone has shifted to a more balanced tone (As the tweeters and mids are more ear level now)... and this the impression of less bass... 

 

You enhanced the bass but it was not balanced with the rest of the speaker output.

 

Also, the image will be better as it is now ear level.

[fas42]

30 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Not if the stands are designed properly and weighted. If not then well, it is a crap shoot. There is a lot of nonsense in your statements.

 

I mean, I don't put stacks of papers on mine, talk about unstable.

 

 

Yes, if the stands are designed well, and weighted adequately, then it will work to a decent degree. IME, the way most small speaker sound as normally set up, is, well, small - wind up the volume a bit, and the SQ falls apart; and the bass most certainly doesn't work properly - non-existent, or boomy.

 

A stack of papers is a simple method of increasing effective mass, while allowing it to be readily adjustable. As a long term, aesthetic solution it obviously is a no-go - but it serves to give one answers. It worked 30 years ago, and it still is a simple approach for getting results.

 

I aim to hear the recording, at any volume level that the system can sustain - not, the limitations of the system setup.

[992Sam]

8 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Yes, if the stands are designed well, and weighted adequately, then it will work to a decent degree. IME, the way most small speaker sound as normally set up, is, well, small - wind up the volume a bit, and the SQ falls apart; and the bass most certainly doesn't work properly - non-existent, or boomy.

 

A stack of papers is a simple method of increasing effective mass, while allowing it to be readily adjustable. As a long term, aesthetic solution it obviously is a no-go - but it serves to give one answers. It worked 30 years ago, and it still is a simple approach for getting results.

 

I aim to hear the recording, at any volume level that the system can sustain - not, the limitations of the system setup.

 

these definitely don't sound small.. my problem isn't either a lack of volume, or bass (well at least not when they're sitting on the floor)..  I was just a bit surprised at the perceived drop in low end (sub 60Hz) volume when placed on the 2.5' tall stands...  I did move them closer to the wall to off set this, but it's still more middy than it was before...  Like I said above, part of this problem is while waiting on the stands (nearly two months) I got used to / my ears trained to the tone of the bass when close to the floor.

[fas42]

Tracked down a YT clip of your model of speakers running, if only for a second or two,

 

 

The smallness of the sound, here, is what one usually gets with this size of cabinet if it's just plunked on a convenient surface - I don't believe the full capability of such units can be realised until the stabilising of the cabinets is thoroughly explored, 😉.

[992Sam]

On 11/4/2020 at 3:13 PM, fas42 said:

Tracked down a YT clip of your model of speakers running, if only for a second or two,

 

 

The smallness of the sound, here, is what one usually gets with this size of cabinet if it's just plunked on a convenient surface - I don't believe the full capability of such units can be realised until the stabilising of the cabinets is thoroughly explored, 😉.

 

 

I got one better... here's a YouTube clip of my exact system...  once I moved the speakers back closer to the rear wall... the bass opened up.  Its a compromise due to my smallish room... but it sounds great! 

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH5YAbCfDJ8

[fas42]

2 hours ago, 992Sam said:

 

 

I got one better... here's a YouTube clip of my exact system...  once I moved the speakers back closer to the rear wall... the bass opened up.  Its a compromise due to my smallish room... but it sounds great! 

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH5YAbCfDJ8

 

Hope you don't mind, but I would just make a comment about the stands ... very much like the style of construction, the three legged approach - but I find that the top of the legs come too close together - the speaker "hangs over" the platform it's sitting on. If I were to do my own version of what you have I would have a very solid platform at least the size of the base of the speakers, with the legs effectively in line with the bottom of the sides of the speakers. And most importantly, couple the speaker cabinet to the platform it's sitting on only at the most rigid points; for a box, these are obviously the corners, directly under the vertical sides.

 

The point of this is that the vibration of the cabinets is transferred to the stand and floor in the most effective way - I have found the better I do this, the more 'authoritative' is the bass.

[botrytis]

On 11/4/2020 at 4:30 PM, fas42 said:

 

Yes, if the stands are designed well, and weighted adequately, then it will work to a decent degree. IME, the way most small speaker sound as normally set up, is, well, small - wind up the volume a bit, and the SQ falls apart; and the bass most certainly doesn't work properly - non-existent, or boomy.

 

A stack of papers is a simple method of increasing effective mass, while allowing it to be readily adjustable. As a long term, aesthetic solution it obviously is a no-go - but it serves to give one answers. It worked 30 years ago, and it still is a simple approach for getting results.

 

I aim to hear the recording, at any volume level that the system can sustain - not, the limitations of the system setup.

 

 

I totally disagree. Bookshelves can sound big, it depends on the speakers and the room acoustics.

 

A stack of papers, is just that, a stack of papers. You do realize one of the issues with paper is that if you have a nice wood finish, on the speakers, that paper being a rough surface, can scratch and damage the cabinet. Also, if you are using newspaper, which uses soybean oil based ink, it can leach into the cabinet and ruin it also. Sorry no.

 

If one uses a weighted, stiff stand and then attaches said speaker to the stand, there is no issues.

[botrytis]

On 11/4/2020 at 5:13 PM, fas42 said:

Tracked down a YT clip of your model of speakers running, if only for a second or two,

 

 

The smallness of the sound, here, is what one usually gets with this size of cabinet if it's just plunked on a convenient surface - I don't believe the full capability of such units can be realised until the stabilising of the cabinets is thoroughly explored, 😉.

Right, it has nothing to do with the mic and how it was recorded.

 

Go actually listen to set a set of speakers. Using youtube to base your opinion on is like...

 

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

 

I totally disagree. Bookshelves can sound big, it depends on the speakers and the room acoustics.

 

Room acoustics have nothing to with it, IME ... the presentation of the speakers, and the recording dominates the room totally, if the rig is well sorted. Which means that an intimate capture will sound exactly so, and at the opposite end a massive acoustic will completely overwhelm the listening space.

 

3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

A stack of papers, is just that, a stack of papers. You do realize one of the issues with paper is that if you have a nice wood finish, on the speakers, that paper being a rough surface, can scratch and damage the cabinet. Also, if you are using newspaper, which uses soybean oil based ink, it can leach into the cabinet and ruin it also. Sorry no.

 

If one uses a weighted, stiff stand and then attaches said speaker to the stand, there is no issues.

 

Again, the papers are just a workaround - to get answers. If one wants an aesthetically pleasing look, then purchase massively heavy speakers designed to look good, or build some visually acceptable structure around small speakers that does the same thing as the papers.

 

30 years ago, I used a stand structure at least 10 times heavier and more rigid than what @992Sam has in his clip, and added a huge weight on top as well. Experimentation showed the more massive and rigid the structure, the better the sound ... to be blunt, I find the bass performance of most audio setups to be quite poor; the intensity of the bass line in the music just doesn't get conveyed ...

[992Sam]

34 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Hope you don't mind, but I would just make a comment about the stands ... very much like the style of construction, the three legged approach - but I find that the top of the legs come too close together - the speaker "hangs over" the platform it's sitting on. If I were to do my own version of what you have I would have a very solid platform at least the size of the base of the speakers, with the legs effectively in line with the bottom of the sides of the speakers. And most importantly, couple the speaker cabinet to the platform it's sitting on only at the most rigid points; for a box, these are obviously the corners, directly under the vertical sides.

 

The point of this is that the vibration of the cabinets is transferred to the stand and floor in the most effective way - I have found the better I do this, the more 'authoritative' is the bass.

 

strangely their shorter version (The SS5's) which are 6" shorter, come with a larger base... might be the geometry of how they're constructed due to the same size footprint.... but I use a very high quality rubberized pad underneath the speaker to both provide a solid grip and also a solid connection to the stand..  I can honestly say, they sound nearly perfect to my ear, some something turned out right in the setup...  the biggest help was moving them closer to the wall, but at a 45 degree angle,  (ironically). 

[davide256]

On 11/4/2020 at 12:34 PM, 992Sam said:

Ok, so I have noticed that ever since I put my XR50's up from the 3" stands they were on before (effectively at floor level) to my 2.5' tall stands (they are a solidsteel,  high quality stand)... I am getting a bit less bass... not bad bass per se, but not as good as it was when they sat nearly on the floor.

 

Carpeted smallish room, speaker distance from the wall hasn't changed, and the speaker stands are on spikes that are pushed all the way thru the carpet onto the concrete below. 

 

Any ideas on why this counter intuitive situation could be happening?  

You have a ported speaker design, they are very sensitive to room placement for bass response. Also because the tweeter is now at ear level your treble response is likely greater, you are less off axis. Take a look at the Cardas web  site for some materials on optimizing speaker room placement. Because damping factors and wall materials vary

you may want to take the spikes off temporarily  and experiment with test bass passages to "triangulate" on best speaker location, then add back the spikes

[bluesman]

This is a classic example of bass reinforcement by proximity to reflective surfaces (boundary effect). Floor placement alone boosts omnidirectional frequencies (below 80 or so) by about 3 db. Put it on the floor and against a wall to add another 3 or so. Corner placement on a floor adds another dose.  Reflected bass is close to but not perfectly phase aligned, and this is affected by exact positioning (angulation in all planes, spacing between surfaces and speakers etc).  So the reinforcement makes it louder but often muddies it up.  Read about it in this piece from TAS on improving your bass. Here’s the most relevant paragraph:

 

”Bass from the loudspeaker, radiating omnidirectionally, is reflected from the room’s rear wall and sidewalls. This reflected energy combines with the direct wave from the woofer essentially in-phase, combining constructively to increase the bass amplitude. This is the common phenomenon known as ‘room gain’ - a bass boost added by the room. The direct and reflected waves aren’t precisely phase-aligned, which causes some frequencies to be boosted more than others. In the upper bass, the direct and reflected waves can be out of phase, combining destructively to create a dip in the frequency response. This phenomenon colors the bass, adding an unnatural emphasis or de-emphasis to certain registers of certain instruments, particularly basses. Because the frequency at which this reinforcement or cancellation occurs is dependent on the distance between the speaker and the room boundaries, we can use good loudspeaker placement techniques to mitigate the deleterious effects of this phenomenon.”

[GregWormald]

On 11/9/2020 at 8:57 AM, 992Sam said:

<snip>I use a very high quality rubberized pad underneath the speaker to both provide a solid grip and also a solid connection to the stand..

A couple of little things you might try:

 

Instead of the rubber pad, try a few blobs of blu-tac. They grip the speakers really well and compress so the speakers respond as if they have been screwed/bolted to the stands—i.e. their mass has been increased.

 

The other "mass adding" trick is to fill the legs of the stand with something like dry swimming pool filter sand. This also damps the stands significantly.

 

Nice system, and I do like Benson and Klugh too, among others.

[PeterG]

I agree that losing bass was a natural result of lifting the speakers.  I recommend a small sub such as a REL T5--it will improve both bass and overall fidelity for well under $1,000.

[fas42]

12 hours ago, GregWormald said:

A couple of little things you might try:

 

Instead of the rubber pad, try a few blobs of blu-tac. They grip the speakers really well and compress so the speakers respond as if they have been screwed/bolted to the stands—i.e. their mass has been increased.

 

The other "mass adding" trick is to fill the legs of the stand with something like dry swimming pool filter sand. This also damps the stands significantly.

 

Nice system, and I do like Benson and Klugh too, among others.

 

Agree with both tweaks - Blu-Tack is a very useful part of the tweaker's kit; cheap, easy to apply, and to remove if it doesn't help - a point I would make is that if you're using this, is to have a decent gob of the stuff, and press whatever you're trying to couple really tightly together; make the 'bond' so strong that you almost pick up the stand, if you try to lift the speaker.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Agree with both tweaks - Blu-Tack is a very useful part of the tweaker's kit; cheap, easy to apply, and to remove if it doesn't help - a point I would make is that if you're using this, is to have a decent gob of the stuff, and press whatever you're trying to couple really tightly together; make the 'bond' so strong that you almost pick up the stand, if you try to lift the speaker.

 

Blu-Tack leaches oil into the wood of the cabinet and ruins finishes.

 

Sorry no.

[fas42]

49 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Blu-Tack leaches oil into the wood of the cabinet and ruins finishes.

 

Sorry no.

 

It's on the underneath of the speaker, where no-one looks - and is only needed in the corners. If one wants to investigate this seriously, then another method which accomplishes the same thing could be tried, which is guaranteed to not cause harm ... personally, I would have very little time for listening to speakers which are not stabilised properly; the 'blurring' which results from this not being taken care of would irritate me too much ...

[botrytis]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It's on the underneath of the speaker, where no-one looks - and is only needed in the corners. If one wants to investigate this seriously, then another method which accomplishes the same thing could be tried, which is guaranteed to not cause harm ... personally, I would have very little time for listening to speakers which are not stabilised properly; the 'blurring' which results from this not being taken care of would irritate me too much ...

 

It still damages the wood and finish and that is part and parcel of the box that makes up the speaker. Kind of like water on wood, HDF, or MDF - it is not good for the speaker.

 

If you want, I will argue chemistry with you but you will lose that battle. I understand wood chemistry (along with varnishes, etc.) very well as it was part of my PhD research.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

It still damages the wood and finish and that is part and parcel of the box that makes up the speaker. Kind of like water on wood, HDF, or MDF - it is not good for the speaker.

 

If you want, I will argue chemistry with you but you will lose that battle. I understand wood chemistry (along with varnishes, etc.) very well as it was part of my PhD research.

 

Right, no chemistry with you ... got it!! 😁

 

Friend up the road uses cargo tie down straps, done super tight, with speaker on some cork spacers - to achieve the same effect. No looker, but it means it's easy to test the benefits - if you gain from this type of stabilising, then you can consider a more aesthetic variation ...

[botrytis]

Hence why many speaker manufacturers, I can think of a few that also sell stands with their speakers, so they can be screwed down to the stand. I mean Sonus Faber did that with their Venere line.

 

If you want to attach a speaker to a stand, get a set of speakers that also have stands that match them.